/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

Nice

>Ban on abortion and contraception for ethnic Russians.
>Recognise ethnic Russians as founders of the state
You're supposed to hide this at the end of the manifesto, not point 2 and 3

No to vax mandate

https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-moscow-communists-rally-against-covid/31327775.html

>>451443
Actually, now that I think about it, this IS Russia, one of the most reactionary and culturally spooked nations in the world.
You have the play the game to win I guess..

Is this nazbol gang?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_the_Russian_Federation#Party_programme

Damn

cprf is stuck playing the game, but it makes them hella unrevolutionary

I support them

Apparently this manifesto is fake according to the other thread on org. Holy shit I had no idea org was so reactionary, though, lmao.

>>451452
They probably aren't, they probably fap to degenerate porn while calling gays degenerate, and would flirt with the idea of abortion when a girl tell them her period is late. They are probably sick and tired of the faggot jannies.

>>451453
If this shit is true then I am even more doomer than I was before.

>>451454
Well shig my nig if you got a plan to raid org post it on the /I/ thread.

KPRF Campaign Poster (2018): "Better red, then gay."

>>451456
I'm going to be moving back to my mom's house because she is getting older and since uni is still cancelled due to covid business is going dry here.

My landlord has this weird ISP that uses the same IP but has a lot of proxies, I just evade a ban by connecting and disconnecting from the net, and since I don't know hownit works I won't be able to evade any bans any more after this month. On the plus side I might stop wasting my time on that cesspit.

I might give tor or onion a try, but I am very illiterate with computers.

>>451459
Tor is easy. Just download the tor browser off the tor homepage and your good to go.

Nice

>>451452
Yeah, its hella fake http://cprf.ru/party-program/

>>451466
It's not fake. Kprf created this manifesto it's from their website

>>451468
tell me what kprf stands for, then tell me what cprf stands for though

libtards seething, nice

>>451458
What a shithole of a country

Also it's really rich for Russian communists to complain about fags when most Russian men are raised by their mothers and grandmothers, which basically means most of the Russian population is already being raised by same-sex households

>>451515
cope, seethe, dilate
>>451517
lmao shut the fuck up

>>451452

*Its very similar to their prior programs, so its unlikely to be fake.

While it would be a drastic change from the present regime, especially in terms of social welfare, overall the program is pretty social-democratic.

I think more impressive would be if they reinstituted a state monopoly on foreign trade and put in place a full nationalization of the financial sector to be placed under the control of a new gosplan.

>>451447
no this is just standard marxism-leninism. of course it'd look "nazbol" to you because you're a homosexual.

>>451443
Faggot suburban leftoids think they can dictate what communist parties are 'supposed' to do.

Go back to playing video games and watching twitch streams

>>451458
>>451457
>>451448
>>451445
>>451444

Ridiculously based.

Westerner who think being gay == left on suicide watch.

Reminder that Navalny and are are astroturfed foreign supported opposition which has no real support inside Russia

>>457941
>Muh fag criticizing the heckin based communist party that’s fucking pathetic controlled opposition, promotes ethnic centrism, supports their government’s imperialist wars, and opposes reproductive rights for women
Rooskies looking pathetic rn ngl

>>457943
I genuinely believe if it was down to leftoids every communist party would be running on a platform indistinguishable from the US Democrats.

>>457944
Oh yea I forgot if you don’t hang the queers from the lampposts while beating your wife to a pulp after tonight’s weekly vodka binge you’re actually a filthy westoid liberal tovarisch

Tankies have devolved into the most pathetic pieces of shit imaginable, no wonder their politics is entirely online and consists of stealing valor for countries that no longer exist lmao
>>457945
Wild how the problem with the DNC for you rightoid chumps isn’t remotely related to their economic policy, foreign policy, class interests, etc., it’s that they don’t hate the heckin uyghurs, faggots, and cunts like based Rooskie “communists” do

You fags unironically celebrate an “opposition” party that can’t get Putin’s cum out of their mouth lmao

>>457946
Nah I hate the DNC for their neolib economics, endless foreign interventions and contempt for the working class. The woke shit is just the icing on the cake.

>>457947
>The only thing that isn’t an actual problem with the DNC is the icing on the cake!
Yet you’re promoting the “CP” that supports Vladimir fucking Putin and United Russia? Fuck off tankoid, you people are pathetic, you already showed your true faces when you degenerated into pathetic vatniks
<Read this wall of text by Lenin
Why would I when you don’t give half a fuck what Lenin thought anyway?

>>457948
Why do you have such a hate boner for Marxist-Leninists anon? Every thread on this site I see you seething about "tankoids" and "ziggers". Did Stalin kill your grandpa or some shit.

>>457949
>Why do you have such a hate boners for MLs?
Let’s go over the things I’ve seen them claim, promote, or support!
<Nature is “reactionary” and wanting to stop society from destroying the biosphere is indicative of fascist sympathies
<Having pets is bourgeois, bourgeois pet owners should be re-educated, pets should be culled
<Art should literally all be state propaganda, in fact art literally all is propaganda, the state should have the right to determine which art exists, “liberal artists” (people who disagree with this) should be shot!
<Colonialism was based material progression!
<The real problem with Stalin is that he didn’t kill enough communists/random civilians, all of whom were fascists! THE PROBLEM IS THAT IT WASNT ENOUGH OF A DICTATORSHIP, FUCK KHRUSHCHEV, STALIN NEEDED TO LIVE FOREVER, THIS IS A SCIENCE
<Marxism is a “science” and actual science is wrong when it disagrees with the Soviet government’s retarded policies, like promoting Lysenko 🫠
<Genetics, ecology, evolutionary biology, subatomic physics, and cosmology are all bourgeois, liberal, or fascist! How are they and why would I say this? FUCK YOU, THAT’S WHY!
<Haha “critical” (don’t you dare criticize though) support for the various capitalist regimes of the East and South that conflict with Western capitalists! We need based multipolarity so the Russians, Chinese, Iranians, Americans, Germans, French, and British all slaughter communists and proletarians…WHILE ALSO competing with each other!
<Based non-white capitalism crushing cringe non-white proles! If you’re working class in a country America wants to overthrow you better fucking accept living under the boot heel of your own elites!
<The Mongol Empire was socialist because the eurasian chosen people have an inherent “socialist character” 😌
<The issue with America’s crimes against humanity aren’t the content of its actions nor the reasoning behind them, but the fact that America committed them; hence why identical actions led by mostly the same motivations by America’s rivals are good 😌
<Ethnonationalism is cool, actually, so long as it’s woke!
<Imperialist nationalism is based, actually, so long as you call it “socialist” (i.e. patsoc) and then masturbate to Stalin!
<Anarkids are fascists who get the bullet!
<Trots are fascists (despite having nearly identical beliefs to us) and get the bullet! If you criticize the USSR you deserve death!
<Why should I focus on the future instead of obsessing over the past?
<[Insert deranged murder fantasies about X individuals accused of fascism, including other communists and anarchists]
<Haha if you criticize us in our internet forum that’s a pretty good chance you’re CIA 😌
<Democracy is anti-communist 😡
<Haha you cringe anarcho-liberal, you genuinely think workers should still organize in a self-described socialist state!
<How dare you imply the solution to the USSR’s problems was mass involvement in politics?!
<What if I told you that the World Wars…were good actually?
<Not enough working class people are suffering yet, we need immense suffering and death to force the workers to fight for what we want!
<Fuck the workers for massing up and protesting against the state! They need to spontaneously become communists and organize for that purpose!
That’s all off the top of my head, I’ve seen all of this shit be argued by tankies before, a lot of it I’ve seen argued by shitloads of tankies; you fuckers completely discredited yourselves when you completed your transformation into vatniks and finally admitted your true desire is actually imperialist “multipolarity” and not communism or even working class people being better off

>Inb4 tankoid tries to memoryhole this shit and/or claim every argument is correct but just “misrepresented”
>Every thread on this site I see you seething about "tankoids" and "ziggers". Did Stalin kill your grandpa or some shit.
More like you LARPer cunts intentionally infiltrated the mod teams of every leftist group you can find and use the guise of “anti-sectarianism” to purge all criticism of you cunts and then force leftists to feign support for countries like the Russian Federation, fuck you niqqa

>Oh yea I forgot if you don’t hang the queers from the lampposts while beating your wife to a pulp after tonight’s weekly vodka binge you’re actually a filthy westoid liberal tovarisch

What a useful and accurate summery of either the politics of my or KPRF, comrade. I'm glad you're willing to have a reasoned and good faith discussion!

>Tankies have devolved into the most pathetic pieces of shit imaginable, no wonder their politics is entirely online and consists of stealing valor for countries that no longer exist lmao

You're right comrade. Those despicable tankies. All they do is worship Stalin and refuse the accept the dominant cultural-political narratives of the west.

>You fags unironically celebrate an “opposition” party that can’t get Putin’s cum out of their mouth lmao

Take your weird fantasies back to leftypol

>>457950
>Let’s go over the things I’ve seen
Every single thing on that list is undeniably true. Cope and seethe.
>muh ukraine
Don't care. Fake country.
>More like you LARPer cunts intentionally infiltrated the mod teams of every leftist group you can find and use the guise of “anti-sectarianism”
Almost all of the mods for this site that I know of are Marxist-Leninists. The biggest proponents of censorship on .ogre are a literal radlib (wvobbly), an EU shilling dengoid (pask) and a gay socdem who hates stalin (caballo).

>>457951
>The West created gays and abortion
Based comrade
I too love to fight back against the decadent West by removing women’s right to an abortion!

In our day and age we know the communist tenets of the 21st Century
1. West bad bad, everything about it
2. East good good, everything about it
3. If you call yourself a socialist you are one, unless you live in the West
4. The culture of the East and South are beyond reproach because you are a degenerate westerner (i.e. female genital mutilation, theocracies, gay bashing, etc. AS A FILTHY WESTOID YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO CRITICIZE)
Honestly pretty based to see how almost every position of modern internet “MLs” are heavily couched in nationalism and chauvinism 🥰

>>457952
The literal only reason the mods here don’t purge is because this board is barely used
Tankies, for the most part, exist to purge leftists, that’s the majority of their activities and arguably the majority of their goals

Notice how you sad faggots never try taking over a place like 4chan, reactionary reddit subs, nothing; all you fucking do is infiltrate leftist forums, purge the fuck out of them to turn it into a sad circlejerk, and then keep purging it to maintain it as a circlejerk

You niqqas are like parasites to the Left at this point, idgaf if you think you can steal valor for the USSR. Funny asf that the only people who have more leftist blood on their hands are actual fascists and the American Empire.

>>457954
>The literal only reason the mods here don’t purge is because this board is barely used
You clearly don't understand how this site operates or how it come to exist. That isn't the case at all.
>Tankies, for the most part, exist to purge leftists, that’s the majority of their activities and arguably the majority of their goals
Lmao 'tankies' have lifted hundreds of millions out if poverty, developed two industrial superpowers, defeated fascism in Europe, assisted dozens of nations in their fights against imperialism and pioneered space travel, just to name a few achievements. Meanwhile what has your branch of leftism achieved exactly?
>all you fucking do is infiltrate leftist forums, purge the fuck out of them to turn it into a sad circlejerk, and then keep purging it to maintain it as a circlejerk
/leftypol/ has always been dominated by tankies, and as I said before leftychan was founded predominantly by Marxist-Leninists.
Regardless, anarchist forums are even worse for censorship than the .ogres. This is the first rule on the /r/anarchism subreddit:
<In an attempt to make space for marginalized people in our reddit r/anarchism has an anti-oppression policy.

<Oppression is defined as any language or action that expresses, reinforces, upholds or sympathizes with any form of systemic social domination, including but not limited to: eugenics, patriarchy, cisnormativity, white supremacy, heteronormativity, capitalism, etc…
<For the purpose of discussion, belief in systems of economic and political domination, i.e. capitalism or statism will be tolerated. This strategy should not be applied to combating authoritarian ideologies such as liberalism, libertarian-capitalism or state-socialism.

>>457956
>Internet shitposters continue to steal valor for countries they simp over
>Internet shitposters make the same claim western liberals could make about their own dogshit societies
Lmao

I want to put the anti-tankie anon in a room with this woman, it would be the political confrontation of the century.

>>457958
It would be nothing since we speak different languages and since people don’t act as retarded irl as they do online

>>457959
The Babushka isn't online. She does her shitposting irl.

>>457960
At any rate there isn’t anything to debate, she isn’t a communist to begin with and I don’t have this simpering veneration for random rooskies ”MLs” vatniks have so muh babushka is meanigless to me

>>457956
>Lmao 'tankies' have lifted hundreds of millions out if poverty,
Picrel
>developed two industrial superpowers,
Russia was never a superpower, all it ever had was nooks. This was well known even by the 1960's when JFK was recorded laughing about how there wasn't really a missile gap. Also picrel.
>defeated fascism in Europe,
Lol, oh okay I guess the US and UK had no involvement.
>assisted dozens of nations in their fights against imperialism
Also BTFO'd all neighboring nations to imperialize them. You niqqas couldn't even get along with China.
>/leftypol/ has always been dominated by tankies,
That was only after a couple of coups by you losers.
You tankies had control of the largest country in the world, damn near endless natural resources and a large population. But your ideology is so fucked up it all collapsed under it's own weight in 70 years, barely a single person's lifetime.
The USSR's collapse alone should discredit ML's for eternity but instead you cosplay as Soviets reminding everyone of your unprecedented failure.
You sold out the Russian workers without so much as a shot fired. Say what you will about the booj but they would have never gone without a fight kek.

>>457962
>Picrel
Doesn't prove shit. Even the CIA admitted that the average Soviet citizen had no problem with hunger. Denying that the Soviet system improved the quality of life immeasurably for workers and farmers is just historically inaccurate. But you know this, hence why your evidence to the contrary consists of some random picture.
>Russia was never a superpower, all it ever had was nooks
The USSR was the world's second largest economy for most of the 20th century and considering how much effort the US put into destabilising and subverting Russia and her allies, I find that hard to believe.
>Also BTFO'd all neighboring nations to imperialize them
Imperialized them by giving them significant autonomy, allowing them to leave the union whenever they wanted and vastly improving the standard of living in all said nations, even when at huge cost to Russia?
>oh okay I guess the US and UK had no involvement.
An incredible majority of German military deaths and material losses occurred on the eastern front. The Soviets contributed the most to the defeat of Nazi Germany, even rightoid historians who hate the USSR admit this lol.
>But your ideology is so fucked up it all collapsed under it's own weight in 70 years, barely a single person's lifetime.
The men responsible for the collapse of the USSR were not tankies or MLs by any definition.
>You sold out the Russian workers without so much as a shot fired
Are you actually retarded? There were multiple armed attempts to disrupt Yeltsin and Gorbachev's subversion, ending up with Yeltsin literally shelling Russia's parliament building. Read a book.

>>457963
>Cites a copy of a copy of an article with a blurb about a study that the tankie hides.
>Tankie too stupid to realize that even his cherry picked press release still admits that Soviets had to fill themselves on potatoes and bread to keep themselves fed.
Kek, not to fear I actually have the full study that is cited.
http://www.foia.cia.gov/sites/default/files/document_conversions/89801/DOC_0000498133.pdf
Apparently the quib about the Soviet diet being equivalent to US one's comes out of the blue in the middle of the study and isn't attributed to anyone.
Soviet citizens weren't keeling over from starvation (which is always the tankie benchmark "they didn't die did they?!") But Soviet citizens were eating much lower quality of food, (a level that none of these Wester booj tankies would ever accept for themselves). And the amount of calories was likely misjudged.
Here's a great article about it that cites actual date and not obscure newspaper articles with no citations.
https://web.archive.org/web/20220925154928/https://nintil.com/the-soviet-union-food/
>In the USSR, they are happy to have found some foods; they buy what the stores offer. Here, we buy what we want. There, food expenditures are a major part of family income; here, all including retirees and the unemployed eat weil. 1 1 In plant and institute cafeterias there, meatballs are made almost entirely out of bread, and ahorne dinner consists of soup, breaded patties, and a large amount of potatoes (or macaroni); here, dinner is a good cut of meat with some small garnish. There, only a few people have eaten lobster, pineapple, or avocado in their entire lives. The quantities of juices, spices and various imported products cannot even be compared. There, they eat tomatoes and fresh cucumbers from August through October, plums in September, and strawberries for two weeks at the beginning of summer; here, all these and much more is available year round. There, vegetables means cabbage, beets and carrots; here, there are dozens of types. There, apples are available in the fall; here, almost any fruit is eaten year round. The appearance of the very best Moscow (Leningrad) food store (gastronom) cannot be compared visually with an ordinary supermarket in some out-of-the-way place in America. There, the consumer carries his pickles horne wrapped in Pravda; American packaging is carefuIly planned for convenience of storage and use.
>Citizens reported daily queuing, inferior quality goods, and lack of supply sometimes. Most respondents said that there were deficits in meat supply. However, almost everyone had meat (and cheese, kefir, milk, and eggs) several times per week, and the majority had them daily. One explanation of why there was queuing and shortages while at the same time they were eating meat almost daily is that there existed a legal private market (rynok)
>Dronin and Bellinger (2005, 310) point out, per capita consumption figures likely overstate actually available amounts, given that the Soviet Union’s inadequate transportation and storage infrastructure led to frequent shortages in stores, as well as significant loss of foodstuffs and raw products due to spoilage. Incidentally, this problem persists to the present day: according to recent estimates, equipment and infrastructure deficiencies cause Russia an annual loss of 15–20 million tons on grain, 1 million tons of meat, and 7 million tons of milk (“Russia’s Machines Cost 20 Million Tons of Grain, Institute Says”, by Marina Sysoyeva. Bloomberg, October 13, 2011).
>Throughout the Soviet era, various and seemingly persistent problems had emerged to plague the country’s food system. Government experts estimated that the elimination of waste and spoilage in the production, storage, and distribution of food could have increased the availability of grain by 25 percent, of fruits and vegetables by 40 percent, and of meat products by 15 percent (Library of Congress 1991). Moreover, as Gray (Gray 1990, 94) estimated, “only 60 percent of the protein in Soviet milk [was] consumed by humans, and the milk that [was] fed to animals or simply wasted [had] more protein than half the meat Soviet citizens [consumed].”
TL;DR The CIA was looking at food production minus exports to estimate how much Soviets were eating.
But transportation issues, corruption and Soviets lying about consumption likely inflate these numbers.
Even if the Soviet diet were equvilant (they weren't) the Soviet diet would actually have to be greater than Western one's to be truly equal because many Soviet workers were still primarily employed in physically intensive heavy industries.
These kind of half truths and nested lies are hallmarks of Soviet apologists. There's not some secret truth behind the obvious that you're too stupid to understand behind the breadlines (really meatlines) and empty shelves in the USSR. Things were really scarce and shitty.

>>457965
I'll be back to debunk more of this >>457963 tankie's lies when I get time just in the meantime just remember the old joke.
>How can you tell when a tankie is lying?
<His lips are moving!

>>457963
>The men responsible for the collapse of the USSR were not tankies or MLs by any definition.
Lol cope, and the reformists didn't cause the collapse of the Soviet Union. The were trying to save it, the USSR would have collapsed with or without them.
Marxist-Leninist are responsible for the most spectacular political failure in all of history and yet they strut around like they are the unquestioned authorities on revolution. The cognitive dissonance is incredible.
Even the fucking Roman Empire took centuries to fall.

>>451440
Stalinists stop being tailists to bourgeois regimes challenge

They are basically supporters of the neoliberal regime of russia. KPRF is basically a counter-revolutionary party at this point and its leadership should be shot against a wall.

>>457962
>Picrel
<It's a picture from perestroika when as a result of economic reforms soviet economy was destabilized
every time lol

>Russia was never a superpower, all it ever had was nooks.
Yes, I'm sure all those efforts NATO went through were just for show lol

>This was well known even by the 1960's when JFK was recorded laughing about how there wasn't really a missile gap.
lol
If politician said so - it must be true! where have I heard that lol?
I'm sure all those missiles on Cuba were a no biggie

>Also picrel.
fascinating
anarchoid not being a NATO bootlicker challenge: Impossible.

>Lol, oh okay I guess the US and UK had no involvement.
Yes, basically no involvement before the Soviets BTFOd Nazis at Stalingrad.
Nevermind constant requests from the soviets to open the Second Front.
So no, you libshit have no claim to defeating nazism at all. It was all Soviet Union.

>Also BTFO'd all neighboring nations to imperialize them.
What is even imperialism anymore lol?
No soviet citizen ever owned a MOP in any of those countries.

>You niqqas couldn't even get along with China.
Funny hearing this from a libtard anarchoid. You couldn't get along even with your own reflection in a mirror.

>That was only after a couple of coups by you losers.
There was no coup. OldBO created the board on infinitechan.
That he went full retard is another question, not unique to tankies. You have a log in your own eye anarchoid.

>You tankies had control of the largest country in the world, damn near endless natural resources and a large population.
lol
the bolsheviks had control of a devastated shitpoor country in chaos with no food for fucking Petrograd and with a social crisis that would make the late Roman Republic look like a fucking Disneyland

They had control of a country that was devastated by the two most bloodiest wars in human history and one of the bloodiest civil wars in human history
get the fuck out of here

>But your ideology is so fucked up it all collapsed under it's own weight in 70 years, barely a single person's lifetime.
lol
and your ideology is so great that your ideal soyciety didn't even got a chance to collapse

>The USSR's collapse alone should discredit ML's for eternity but instead you cosplay as Soviets reminding everyone of your unprecedented failure.
Are we supposed to ignore what followed after the said collapse? Do you blame MLs for present situation in former Ukrainian SSR too lol?
well, you're not alone champ, you're in good company - with russian and ukroid nationalists

Any ML failure pales in comparison with your beloved libshit world order failure, anarhoid

>You sold out the Russian workers without so much as a shot fired. Say what you will about the booj but they would have never gone without a fight kek.
lol
are we supposed to ignore coup attempts and basically a civil war in Moscow?

the reality is infinitely more complex than your idealist black and white useless impotent ramblings

booj would destroy the fucking world before he loses his property
that soviet nomenklatura didn't fight for "their collective property" as you anarhoids droned for decades that they would - maybe, just maybe, indicates that it was not particularly "their" property?

what fucking class in all of human history gave their property without basically even fucking shot missile fired lol?

>>458006
><It's a picture from perestroika when as a result of economic reforms soviet economy was destabilized
>every time lol
>The slightest bit of transparency made my entire economy collapse. No this is not a sign of deep rot within the system. It was all the press' fault!
Why do tankies always sound like fascists?
>Yes, I'm sure all those efforts NATO went through were just for show lol
Yes, the Military Industrial Complex run the US.
>This was well known even by the 1960's when JFK was recorded laughing about how there wasn't really a missile gap.
>lol
>If politician said so - it must be true
It was an open secret among the government.
>Yes, basically no involvement before the Soviets BTFOd Nazis at Stalingrad.
Stalingrad happened in 1942, two years after the US joined the war.
>So no, you libshit have no claim to defeating nazism at all. It was all Soviet Union.
LMAO, you're never going to be able to revision away the fact that the US were instrumental for 4 years in winning WWII.
>Funny hearing this from a libtard anarchoid.
>Everyone I don't like is an anarchist.
Cope.
>There was no coup. OldBO created the board on infinitechan.
OldBO went full retard after Rojova. Then you all attacked Space until he gave up and gave the board to dollars, then you tricked dollars into giving up the bunkerchan url.
>and your ideology is so great that your ideal soyciety didn't even got a chance to collapse
I'm not an anarchist.
>Are we supposed to ignore what followed after the said collapse?
No, Russia's dysfunction today is a direct consequence of the failed ML project.
>are we supposed to ignore coup attempts and basically a civil war in Moscow?
Are we supposed to ignore that the Politburo controlled the entire economy. Are we supposed to ignore that the dysfunction went on for decades.
Are we supposed to the boondoggle that was Afghanistan.
Are we supposed to ignore that civil unrest happens in capitalist countries. And what fucking coup are you talking about.
>the reality is infinitely more complex than your idealist black and white useless impotent ramblings
LMAO, the reality is more stark then you fragile ego can process. The blame for the collapse rests solely on the corrupt authoritarianism of Marxist-Leninism and it's bastard child Stalinism.
The workers never ever meaningfully controlled the MoP. Which is how the largest country in the world could be foisted over to the booj like a cheap mattress during a fire sale.

>>458006
>that soviet nomenklatura didn't fight for "their collective property" as you anarhoids droned for decades that they would - maybe, just maybe, indicates that it was not particularly "their" property?
They sold out the entire Russian working class to neolibs that spend the next decade crushing their bodies and minds with reforms.
Where in the fuck did you get the cope that giving up without a fight was noble kek.

>>458010
>The slightest bit of transparency made my entire economy collapse. No this is not a sign of deep rot within the system. It was all the press' fault!
I couldn't give two fucks about press.
What I give a fuck is a "Law of the Enterprise" that was basically a death warrant to the soviet economy and by extension soviet society. Base mogs superstructure libshit. Basic histmat.
To claim that economic reforms had anything to do with "transparency" is to be so high on capitalist koolaid that you might as well paint that red in your flag yellow, anarchoid

>Why do tankies always sound like fascists?
cry me a river
It's not tanks who cry about "muh free press" when the press is monopolized in fewer hands than in fascist Italy

it's not tanks who gobble that political spectacle hook line and sinker and are ready to go fight with literal rabid nazoids side by side against "fascist" russian orcs

>Yes, the Military Industrial Complex run the US.
lmao. cope.
typical libshit talking points - no material analysis, only moralizing

I'm sure Vietnam and Korea akshully happened because MIC just needed to sell weapons or some shit, amiright my libshit friendo?
Mission accomplished lmao, we didn't even want South puppets to win! We just wanted to make money! I'm totally not coping! Murrica Stronk!

>It was an open secret among the government.
Is that why they were losing their marbles about a couple of missiles on Cuba and US spy planes were regularly shot down over the Soviet Union starting in the 60s?
Anyway, your point is irrelevant. USSR basically achieved military parity with the US in the 70s.

>Stalingrad happened in 1942, two years after the US joined the war.
>LMAO, you're never going to be able to revision away the fact that the US were instrumental for 4 years in winning WWII.
Holy burger cope lol.
How is US fighting for islands in the Pacific was at all relevant to the Soviet Union?
First Soviets BTFOd Japan at Khalkin Gol, and only then Japan decided "fuck this Hitler fella and his lebensraum land warfare, we have SEA to take care of"
That's it. Soviets always kept forces in the far east in case japs would try anything stupid again.

So no, you still don't have a claim in defeating nazism my burger libtard/anarchoid
You fucked around in Pacific defending your colonial possessions while the Soviet Union was BEGGING for a second front to relieve some pressure from a german mechanized steamroller.

>Cope.
So who are you then? Just your run of the mill libshit capitalist bootlicker?
I can tell you're quite a US chauvinist at least.

>OldBO went full retard after Rojova. Then you all attacked Space until he gave up and gave the board to dollars, then you tricked dollars into giving up the bunkerchan url.
You must be mixing me with someone else. I don't follow your fbi.gov dramas.
All I know is that space was in cahoots with OldBO because faggotBO was trying to force a migration to bunkerchan, and there was some under-the-table deal between them.
So I fund it funny that you cry about space of all people.

>I'm not an anarchist.
Then who the fuck are you? You sure spew some anarchoid talking sperg pints.

>No, Russia's dysfunction today is a direct consequence of the failed ML project.
lol. LMAO.
Called it.
It's all those bolsheviks that put a bomb under the Russia! And Ukraine! And every other post-soviet shithole!
You know you have more in common with Putin than you think, right?

>Are we supposed to ignore that the Politburo controlled the entire economy.
factually incorrect

>Are we supposed to ignore that the dysfunction went on for decades.
Are we supposed to ignore that the soviet union was constantly changing? Are we supposed to ignore the reforms all throughout its history?

>Are we supposed to the boondoggle that was Afghanistan.
Afghanistan war was based. The fall of the PDPA doomed afghanistan for decades with no end in sight.
You can go suck islamic "freedom fighters" who bombed civilians in Kabul, reactionary landowning clergy, and tribal landowners who terrorized their fellow tribesmen for collaborating with the central government, just don't pretend to be holier than thou faggot, and that you stand for something beyond the boot for the toilers.

Orders of magnitude more people died as a result of the opium drug trade from Afghanistan to the former soviet republics than in the whole conflict on both sides.
But I know that for you this is just human nature or some shit, so who cares huh?

>Are we supposed to ignore that civil unrest happens in capitalist countries.
I missed the point where tanks were shooting at the United States Capitol lol

But I'm sure all that BLM larping limpdick "civil unrest" gets booj all trembling in his boots lol

>And what fucking coup are you talking about.
The August coup, fag. lol

>The blame for the collapse rests solely on the corrupt authoritarianism of Marxist-Leninism and it's bastard child Stalinism.
That's your brain on idealist nothings lol. How about you quit spewing your buzzwords and get down to earth faggot? What is authoritarianism in concrete terms? How is your proposed system not "authoritarian"?
And if you aren't capable of even proposing anything, why do you even open your mouth?

>The workers never ever meaningfully controlled the MoP.
Again with vague buzzwords. What are concrete mechanisms of popular control you propose you anarchoid/libtardoid/specialsnowflakeoid?

>Which is how the largest country in the world could be foisted over to the booj like a cheap mattress during a fire sale.
First, largest means jack shit when the majority of your territory is uninhabited frozen siberian wasteland. Majority of the Soviet population lived in the European part of current Russia, Ukraine etc.
This is no murrica with its fertile midwest.

Second, vague platitudes about workers "not controlling the means of production" mean jack shit with further elaborating about concrete mechanisms of this control.

workers maybe didn't control the MOP in the soviet union because of the political system, but they sure as hell wouldn't be able to control jack shit in your market anarchist utopia by design, because you can't control the market - market controls you

and inb4 "b-b-but I'm not a market anarchist!!" - yes, you are
only alternative to the centrally planned integrated economy is a decentralized market economy
so pick your poison libshit

>Where in the fuck did you get the cope that giving up without a fight was noble kek.
where did I say it was noble lol? I said that they didn't fight for supposedly "their property", which is a contradiction
nomenklatura got bread crumbs from the whole restoration of capitalism business lol
all the new oligarchs were max at the bottom in the CPSU hierarchy, or were majority from the komsomol youth organization

so it wasn't proles property, and it apparently wasn't nomenklatura's property, at least not enough for them to fight for it
so whose property was it then? no ones lol?

>>458014
>I couldn't give two fucks about press.
Well the people of Russia gave a fuck, and when they found out that the entire country was backwards they demanded change. Change that could't be provided without a demoracy.
>What I give a fuck is a "Law of the Enterprise" that was basically a death warrant to the soviet economy and by extension soviet society.
No, it was the Soviets pouring 25% of their GDP into the military. It was them failing to produce consumer goods within even the same ballpark as the west.
In essence it was your fault tankie, and your bullshit praxis.
>Base mogs superstructure libshit. Basic histmat.
No shit fuck face, who 100% controlled the base and the goddamn superstructure in the USSR.
>>Why do tankies always sound like fascists?
>cry me a river
Yup, you learned exactly jack shit from your failure.
>it's not tanks who gobble that political spectacle hook line and sinker and are ready to go fight with literal rabid nazoids side by side against "fascist" russian orcs
Cry me a river, and what the fuck do you care, Russia is not the USSR. But it is super authoritarian like them hmmmmm
>Mission accomplished lmao, we didn't even want South puppets to win! We just wanted to make money! I'm totally not coping! Murrica Stronk!
I'm criticizing the US being beholden to the MIC but your accusing me of being a US shill. You just saw whatever comes to your mind huh?
>Is that why they were losing their marbles about a couple of missiles on Cuba
They were losing their minds because nukes in Cuba mean the booj wouldn't have time to save themselves in a nuclear war. Had nothing to do with Cuba being a threat, Cuba's been getting BTFO'd for 70 straight years now by sanctions.
>The Soviets single highhandedly won WWII.
Again, sorry not true. Calculate it however you want. But the ALLIES won WWII.
>So who are you then? Just your run of the mill libshit capitalist bootlicker?
Don't worry about it, it's not necessary to address critics of the USSR. You're just desperate for something you can use to deflect blame with.
>You must be mixing me with someone else. I don't follow your fbi.gov dramas.
No I am not.
There was no forced migration. Hate chan was shut down after the Christchruch shooting.
>Called it.
The USSR collapsed in 1991, the Politburo sold them out. Fucking Putin got into office under Yelsin in 1996.
Everything going on now is a has a direct link to your failure. There's even a bunch of the same people LMAO.
>Are we supposed to ignore that the soviet union was constantly changing? Are we supposed to ignore the reforms all throughout its history?
Lol, if you're talking about de-Stalinization that was necessary. You can't base your entire economy on 1930's steel foundry construction forever.
>Afghanistan war was based.
Uh huh,
>You can go suck islamic "freedom fighters" who bombed civilians in Kabul, reactionary landowning clergy, and tribal landowners who terrorized their fellow tribesmen for collaborating with the central government,
Lol, the war crimes committed by Soviets there are as long as my arm.
You thought you could roll on that country and they humiliated you and you collapsed.
>Orders of magnitude more people died as a result of the opium drug trade from Afghanistan to the former soviet republics than in the whole conflict on both sides.
Goddamn you stupid. You lost the fucking war, it was a stupid and costly thing to do that was not supported by the people.
Your after the fact copes don't change that.
>I missed the point where tanks were shooting at the United States Capitol lol
The 1991 Coup was by tankies like you idiot.
>That's your brain on idealist nothings lol.
Lol, no, that's you deflecting responsibility for the command economy, that you commanded lol.
>What is authoritarianism in concrete terms?
Not having civil liberties, not having a democracy, not even being able to do anything unless it fits with the ossified command economy bureaucracy.
>Again with vague buzzwords.
>Owning the MoP is a buzzword.
Damn tankies are just parodies of themselves at this point.
>Second, vague platitudes about workers "not controlling the means of production" mean jack shit with further elaborating about concrete mechanisms of this control.
Wrong asshole, was there some kind of worker referendum that approved the fire sale of Soviet industry for pennies on the dollar that I missed.
The Soviet gov kept an iron tight fist on the MoP, which is why it stagnated, the collapsed. No one but them owned the MoP.
>workers maybe didn't control the MOP in the soviet union because of the political system,
Yes my point exactly, the Soviet system was state capitalism. I can't believe you admitted it.
>but they sure as hell wouldn't be able to control jack shit in your market anarchist utopia by design, because you can't control the market - market controls you
More strawmen.
>and inb4 "b-b-but I'm not a market anarchist!!" - yes, you are
More strawmen.
>only alternative to the centrally planned integrated economy is a decentralized market economy
The only choice is between a command economy that doesn't work and capitalism? I don't think so brainlet.
>I said that they didn't fight for supposedly "their property",
Why would they fight for their property when they were selling it off.

>>458014
>Idealist excuses for the collapse of the Soviet Union.
>Politburo fulling in charge of every aspect of the economy but somehow it's collapse wasn't their fault.
>Comic book tier historical revisionism about the Soviet Union highhandedly winning WWII like a red Superman.
>Casting unfounded aspirations about USSR critics all being anarchists.
>Denying current day Russia isn't a direct result of MLs failure even though a direct line can be drawn between these events to the point that Putin and all the oligarchs that dismantled the Soviet system are still in power.
Just tankie things.

>>458017
*Politburo fully in charge

>>458014
>What I give a fuck is a "Law of the Enterprise" that was basically a death warrant to the soviet economy and by extension soviet society.
Lol, The "Law of the Enterprise" reforms were hamstrung by the bureaucracy and interest groups in the Politburo. It's why the Soviet Union never made a transition to market reforms like China did.
The Law of the Enterprises reforms were passed in fucking 1987, just two years before the wall fell, they didn't have time to change anything even if they hadn't been sabatoged.

Some of the consequences of the Soviet command economy.

>>458031
Whoops, clip is from 2007. Regardless this is Putin's "anti-imperialist" Russia.

>>458031
>>458034
>Some of the consequences of the Soviet command economy.
More like some of the consequences of no Soviet command economy lol

this is what your libshit brethren so tirelessly worked for - the freedom to die in a ditch
enjoy it

>>458029
>Lol, The "Law of the Enterprise" reforms were hamstrung by the bureaucracy and interest groups in the Politburo.
Yeah, no shit
the whole perestroika was curated from the very top, and "the Law of the Enterprise" was its central fundamental element

>It's why the Soviet Union never made a transition to market reforms like China did.
They never transitioned because they couldn't transition, they could only crash.
China was an agrarian country, USSR was not. It's all there is to it.

>The Law of the Enterprises reforms were passed in fucking 1987, just two years before the wall fell, they didn't have time to change anything even if they hadn't been sabatoged.
What do you mean "sabotaged" lol? They worked like clockwork - they created a whole new class of soviet capitalist millionaires. And they mortally wounded the soviet "command economy". From this point on it was OVER - the ship has lost control.

>>458017
>Idealist excuses for the collapse of the Soviet Union.
lol, funny hearing this from a person whose whole point is "USSR collapse because no muh liberal freedumbs!!"

>Politburo fulling in charge of every aspect of the economy but somehow it's collapse wasn't their fault.
First, don't put words into my mouth. Where did I say that collapse wasn't a fault of nomenklatura?

Second, why don't you research first how actual decisions were made and how Politburo interacted with the Gosplan and what Gosplan even was, before you spew your hot takes how less than a dozen politburo members "controlled every produced nail in the Soviet Union!!"

>Comic book tier historical revisionism about the Soviet Union highhandedly winning WWII like a red Superman.
Nothing comic tier lol. Just pure facts.
While Anglos and Yankees were fucking around on their islands the Soviet Union single-handedly defeated Nazis at Stalingrad. It was OVER for GERMany after that.

I know it's uncomfortable for a burger who was fed propaganda how he won ww2 all his life, but it's just truth. Nothing I can do about it.

>Casting unfounded aspirations about USSR critics all being anarchists.
Well, if you're not an anarchist that means you're just a capitalist bootlicker libshit. Which is worse.

>Denying current day Russia isn't a direct result of MLs failure even though a direct line can be drawn between these events to the point that Putin and all the oligarchs that dismantled the Soviet system are still in power.
Lmao
It is asinine to claim the current state of the world is MLs fault. You had your "american liberal hegemony", "the end of history" blah-blah
what happened? what's with the face, bitch? I thought there was supposed to an eternal peace on earth without "the Empire of Evil"

you libshits created Yeltsin and Putin, so cry me a fucking river bitch

>>458041

"While Anglos and Yankees were fucking around on their islands the Soviet Union single-handedly defeated Nazis at Stalingrad. It was OVER for GERMany after that."

>Le'edgy

<It was true that the quantity of armaments sent was not great when compared with the remarkable revival of Soviet mass production. The raw statistics show that Western aid supplied only 4 per cent of Soviet munitions over the whole war period, but the aid that mattered did not come in the form of weapons. In addition to radio equipment the United States supplied more than half a million vehicles: 77,900 jeeps, 151,000 light trucks and over 200,000 Studebaker army trucks. One-third of all Soviet vehicles came from abroad and were generally of higher quality and durability, though most came in 1943 and 1944. At the time of Stalingrad only 5 per cent of the Soviet military vehicle park came from imported stocks. Imports, however, gave the Red Army supply system a vital mobility that was by 1944 better than the enemy’s. The Studebaker became a favourite with the Soviet forces. The letters ‘USA’ stencilled on the side were translated as ‘Ubit sukina syna Adolfa’ – ‘to kill that son-of-a-bitch Adolf!’ The list of other supplies, equally vital to the Soviet supply effort, is impressive – 57.8 per cent of aviation fuel requirements, 53 per cent of all explosives, almost half the wartime supply of copper, aluminium and rubber tyres. Arguably the most decisive contribution was supplies for the strained Soviet rail network, much of which was in the occupied areas in 1941. From America came not only 56.6 per cent of all the rails used during the war but 1,900 locomotives to supplement the meagre Soviet output of just 92, and 11,075 railway cars to add to the 1,087 produced domestically. Almost half the supplies, by weight, came in the form of food, enough to provide an estimated half-pound of concentrated nourishment for every Soviet soldier, every day of the war. The shiny tins of Spam, stiff, pink compressed meat, were universally known as ‘second fronts’.

<The provision of Lend-Lease supplies was slow in the early stages of the war, but from late 1942 it became a steady flow through the Soviet eastern provinces via Vladivostok, by the overland route from the Persian Gulf and the more dangerous and inhospitable convoy journeys from British ports to Murmansk or Archangel. Foreign aid on such a scale permitted the Soviet Union to concentrate its own production on the supply of battlefront equipment rather than on machinery, materials or consumer goods. Without Western aid, the narrower post-invasion economy could not have produced the remarkable output of tanks, guns and aircraft, which exceeded anything the wealthier German economy achieved throughout the war. Without the railway equipment, vehicles and fuel the Soviet war effort would almost certainly have foundered on poor mobility and an anaemic transport system. Without the technical and scientific aid – during the war 15,000 Soviet officials and engineers visited American factories and military installations technological progress in the Soviet Union would have come much more slowly. This is not to denigrate the extraordinary performance of the Soviet economy during the war, which was made possible only by the use of crude mass-production techniques, by skilful improvisation in planning and through the greater independence and initiative allowed plant managers and engineers. As a result of the improvements in production, the Red Army faced the German enemy in 1943 on more equal terms than at any time since 1941. The modernization of Soviet fighting power was an essential element in the equation. The gap in organization and technology between the two sides was narrowed to the point where the Red Army was prepared to confront German forces during the summer campaigning season in the sort of pitched battle of manoeuvre and firepower at which German commanders had hitherto excelled.

>>458041
Man it’s so weird to not only see a tankie foolishly deny that the UK and US also fought Germany and each longer than the USSR did, but also openly acknowledge that while the Soviets shared a land border with Germany the other two did not and had to incrementally plan a way to secure a beachfront on the Western European coast, when all of Western Europe was already occupied or a German ally

So it’s very weird to brag about

I have read that debate in this thread, and the ongoing which-hunt to ostracize the "tankerinos" is irritating.
The ongoing anti-soviet rhetoric is tiring.

>>458042
The Soviet Union gets the credit for destroying about 80% of the Nazi-forces
It is beyond cringe for American chauvinists to try to steal soviet glory.
Lets face it the US was the side-kick and the USSR was the main hero of WW2.

The Lend-lease cope is an ideological tool that US chauvinists have been using to rewrite history.
It did help, but it did not change the outcome of the war, get over you self.

>>458044
forgot the picture

>>458044
There's no witchhunt to ostracize tankies. Tankies just rub people the wrong way because they constantly ragepost or spout obvious exaggerations while denigrating others. Maybe try not acting like an asshole?

And this is coming from someone who generally has a favorable view of Stalin.

>>458043
>the UK and US also fought Germany and each longer than the USSR did
funny how they fought only where their colonial possessions were at stake huh?

>while the Soviets shared a land border with Germany the other two did not and had to incrementally plan a way to secure a beachfront on the Western European coast
funny how they "secured a beachfront" right as the soviet steamroller was starting to roll in the western direction huh? right as the soviets didn't need them anymore lol
"Ooops! We know you've asked for the second front when the main battles were raging on, and we only NOW decided to open it when you've basically won the war, but you need to step aside now and let us take Berlin, chump"

Do I need to remind you that GERMoids surrendered to fucking yankies en masse while they fought soviets tooth and nail? speaks volumes, doesn't it?

>>458044
>I have read that debate in this thread, and the ongoing which-hunt to ostracize the "tankerinos" is irritating.
You cunts brought this shit on yourselves by embracing noxious chauvinism and becoming fucking parasites on the left purging all opposition and turning it into ML circlejerks; fuck you niqqa eat shit and die
>>458045
Should've forgot picrel because it's a worthless pic you fucking faggot, when will you scum suckers stop trying to take credit for whatever good ML states did? The people you call "tankies" weren't mindless sycophants for the USSR either you worm.
>>458048
>funny how they fought only where their colonial possessions were at stake huh?
Realistically where else should they have started fighting them? They already lost in Western Europe. Are you seething that the Anglos and Yanks weren't down to toss millions of guys into a meat grinder with 20 attempted invasions of France while Germany was at the height of its power?

Where do you get your understanding of war? Hollywood? Games? You realize you actually need to plan and organize operations, you don't just decide "Let's invade West Europe even tho we'll lose lmao"
>funny how they "secured a beachfront" right as the soviet steamroller was starting to roll in the western direction huh? right as the soviets didn't need them anymore lol
Man sometimes I feel like propaganda must honestly deform human brains. Have you ever considered anything outside the meme arguments internet tankies shit out? Maybe the amphibious landing was planned for 1943-44 because by then Germany had enough manpower and logistics problems to make the operation feasible? Like Normandy was still a shitshow even though Germany was losing the war at that point. Again, maybe the UK/US didn't want to toss millions of men to their deaths, especially when their countries weren't in danger of being destroyed? Is this supposed to be an own?
Like what the actual fuck are you whining about? The allies didn't send troops into Eastern Europe? They didn't launch suicidal beach landings in 1940? Tf?

>>458045
It is a realllllllly stretch to call Nelson Mandela a tankie. His communist sympathies were tenuous and the ties his armed wing had to the South African Communist Party were clearly realpolitik.
Of course these kind of pernicious lies are par for the course with tankies. They're like cops, they think manipulating people into getting killed and hurt is okay because of their revolution spook.
>In 1962 Mandela travelled to Egypt, Morocco, Algeria, Guinea, Liberia, Ghana, Tanganyika (Tanzania), Ethiopia and a number of other countries, including Britain, to solicit support for MK from the international community and learn more about other experiences of wars of liberation against colonial powers. During this period he underwent military training in several countries where MK soldiers would subsequently be sent for their own training. As he travelled, Mandela began sensing that the ANC’s alliance with the SACP was not a universally popular one, and that several African countries were sceptical of the ANC’s ties with communists. Upon his return, Mandela’s communist sympathies had cooled considerably, and Slovo was quoted as saying that they had ‘sent Nelson off to Africa a Communist and he [had come] back an African nationalist.’

>While Mandela’s SACP membership is no longer in dispute, his ties to the Party were perhaps not necessarily ideological; during his trial, Mandela argued that he did not ascribe to the theories of Marx, Lenin, Stalin and Engels and thus was not a communist in his beliefs – but that did not exclude him from Party membership for other purposes. Despite a lack of absolute clarity, Mandela’s ties to communism and the SACP offer a number of relevant insights into the realpolitik of Mandela’s career and the trajectory of the armed struggle. While perhaps not ideologically committed to communism, Mandela undoubtedly saw merit in sustaining a ‘close friendship’ with the party which shared in the ANC’s vision of a future free from oppression and exploitation.

>Mandela’s SACP membership presents us with new knowledge through which to assess not only Mandela the man, but also the way in which his SACP membership may have influenced the undertaking of the armed struggle and the decision to establish an armed wing. Both the ANC and the SACP have maintained that the organisations had arrived at the decision to launch an armed resistance simultaneously, having taken the official decision at the start of June 1961. Documents which have surfaced – including Mandela’s original autobiography written during his time in prison, minutes of meetings and statements from members of the SACP Central Committee – have, however, have led cast doubt on the insistence of the former alliance partners that the decision to take up arms was arrived at simultaneously, and have argued that the decision to launch an armed struggle was primarily initiative of the SACP, inspired by Fidel Castro’s 26th of July movement during the Cuban Revolution. Steven Ellis, professor at the University of Amsterdam, has researched the formation of MK extensively and has concluded that the decision to establish the armed movement was taken by the SACP, decided at a small conference in Emmarentia in December 1960. Mandela was among the 25 people in attendance.

https://web.archive.org/web/20220926161438/https://www.sahistory.org.za/article/mandela-and-south-african-communist-party

>>458039
>More like some of the consequences of no Soviet command economy lol
Child prostitutes, that are still endemic under Putin BTW, are the consequence of the collapse of the command economy that tankies like you perpetuated.
Of course you will never take responsibility for the aftermath of the collapse of the USSR like the typical sociopaths you are.
>>458040
>They never transitioned because they couldn't transition, they could only crash.
>China was an agrarian country, USSR was not
LMAO China was like the #2 or #3 trading partner by 1990. They were not agrarian.
>They worked like clockwork - they created a whole new class of soviet capitalist millionaires.
LMAO, I could find zero fucking proof of this claim. It's probably that emerged during one of your numerous tankie circle jerk coping sessions.
Some control of business was lost at the regional level but nothing approaching a bourgeois class emerged LMAO. The fucking staggering cope!
All major industries remained under the Politburo's control until the USSR's last dying day. You tankies made sure of that.
These reforms did not "mortally wound" the Soviet economy. It was suffering major shortages, weak growth and corruption for years BEFORE the reformers came. Which is how the reformers were able to get any semblance of power at all.

>>458058
>Of course you will never take responsibility for the aftermath of the collapse of the USSR like the typical sociopaths you are.
Lol. This is like demanding from jacobins to take responsibility for the Napoleonic wars.

Wouldn't it be more logical to blame the new regime that is antithesis to the old regime? Why should MLs take blame for the actions of their enemies?

>LMAO China was like the #2 or #3 trading partner by 1990. They were not agrarian.
now look at the composition of agrarian vs urban population
also by that time China has said good buy to planned economy more than a decade earlier already

>LMAO, I could find zero fucking proof of this claim. It's probably that emerged during one of your numerous tankie circle jerk coping sessions.
wtf are you sperging about lol?
look at what was going on with cooperatives, what was their modus operandi
look at who were the first official soviet millionaires
look at the avizo business
you're fucking clueless, like the perestroika "reformers" who thought they could control this runaway reaction

>Some control of business was lost at the regional level but nothing approaching a bourgeois class emerged LMAO. The fucking staggering cope!
lmao, there were OFFICIAL fucking millionaire "cooperators" popping around like fungi after the rain

>All major industries remained under the Politburo's control until the USSR's last dying day.
you're fucking retarded formalist
on paper - doesn't mean in reality

Politburo didn't control jack shit after this law took force lol
the Law of the Enterprise + New banking law = IT'S OVER

>These reforms did not "mortally wound" the Soviet economy.
they did

>It was suffering major shortages, weak growth and corruption for years BEFORE the reformers came.
before there weren't kilometer-long waiting lines in the stores while the meat rots in railway wagons outside the city, chump

It's asinine to claim perestroika's waiting lines were the failure of soviet planning when the whole perestroika was anti-"command economy" ie planning

It's like claiming that your plane that is crashing because you smashed the engine is akshully the fault of engineers who made that engine lol

Or like claiming that the fuck ups of a restored regime is akshully the fault of the previous regime that was negated in the restoration lol

>>458061
>>458061
>Lol. This is like demanding from jacobins to take responsibility for the Napoleonic wars.
You probably fucking should, since the terror against the left radicals during the Jacobin purge culminated in the Directory
>Wouldn't it be more logical to blame the new regime that is antithesis to the old regime? Why should MLs take blame for the actions of their enemies?
Are tankies now retarded enough to believe these individuals appeared from the aether? Or were they fifth columnists all along, did the CIA hire an agent to fuck Yeltsin's mother and birth a capitalist roader to get into the party?
The heckin MLs and bolsheviks you worship miraculously created a state where you succeed by being an asskissing sycophant that never asks questions and never lets your superiors know what you actually think about anything.

How tf can tankies be retarded enough to unironically ask "So we created a party where debate is mostly banned, opposition within the party is banned, walking back terrible decisions is banned, and also there's only one political party and we get to choose the one candidate citizens can vote on and all the masses get is welfare, voting for the one candidate we promote, and tanks turning you to jelly if you live in the Warsaw Pact outside the USSR"
Oh wait, I forgot, they called themselves communists so you can't blame them for the consequences of 70 years of frequently retarded ass policy!

Also
>Party man introduces market reforms that collapse the economy
<No this wasn't our fault!

>>458055
>Realistically where else should they have started fighting them?
How about Balkans, Crimea, Finland etc etc? Hell, how about fucking France or Italy or Sicily?
Nah, that would be just "too risky" and "premature" or some shit

But norther Africa, Egypt and Suez canal? Oh, Anglos will tell you that "we should've invaded yesterday!"

>They already lost in Western Europe. Are you seething that the Anglos and Yanks weren't down to toss millions of guys into a meat grinder with 20 attempted invasions of France while Germany was at the height of its power?
Germany was fucking stuck in the east chump, after the Battle of Moscow they relocated many of their western divisions to the east

>Maybe the amphibious landing was planned for 1943-44 because by then Germany had enough manpower and logistics problems to make the operation feasible?
Lol. With that logic you should've waited until the Soviets took Paris

what, you think it takes three fucking years to plan for a landing in Normandy?
if that's true, then such allies are fucking useless as they were lol

>Like Normandy was still a shitshow even though Germany was losing the war at that point. Again, maybe the UK/US didn't want to toss millions of men to their deaths, especially when their countries weren't in danger of being destroyed? Is this supposed to be an own?
Yes, it's an own
If you fuck around on your islands the whole war while occasionally getting out to protect your Suez canal and colonial possessions while the Soviets do all the actual fighting - then stay on your fucking islands and shut the fuck up how about you defeated nazism.

>>458041
>>Comic book tier historical revisionism about the Soviet Union highhandedly winning WWII like a red Superman.
>Nothing comic tier lol. Just pure facts.

<Another possible way to compare would be to look at how many German soldiers were killed by the Soviets as opposed to the US or UK. But that's a bit of a difficult comparison to make. As Michael Charles explains, the Soviets killed more Germans than the US or UK, but the US and UK captured more, so some of the Soviets' edge is probably attributable to the Red Army just being more brutal than the American or British Armies. Then again, a lot of those captured troops came at the end of the war, when it was more or less random which army German units wound up surrendering to, and didn't really reflect the relative effectiveness of the Allied armies. Overall, Charles' analysis suggests that the Soviets took more German troops out of commission than the other Allies did, but the numbers are necessarily rough.
https://www.vox.com/2014/6/16/5814270/the-successful-70-year-campaign-to-convince-people-the-usa-and-not
And that's coming from an author actually arguing that the Soviets played the most crucial part in WWII.

>>458061
>Wouldn't it be more logical to blame the new regime that is antithesis to the old regime?
<Burn someone's house down.
<Leave
>Oh you think you're homeless now because of me?! That happened AFTER I left.
Tankies are good cases studies of sociopathy.

>>458064
>You probably fucking should, since the terror against the left radicals during the Jacobin purge culminated in the Directory
you think if there was no terror there would've been no restoration lol? Terror was a reaction. Without it you would've had your Napoleon even earlier.

>The heckin MLs and bolsheviks you worship miraculously created a state where you succeed by being an asskissing sycophant that never asks questions and never lets your superiors know what you actually think about anything.
Careerism is not particular to MLs mate.

>"So we created a party where debate is mostly banned, opposition within the party is banned, walking back terrible decisions is banned, and also there's only one political party and we get to choose the one candidate citizens can vote on and all the masses get is welfare, voting for the one candidate we promote, and tanks turning you to jelly if you live in the Warsaw Pact outside the USSR"
Nah, tanks turn you into jelly if you kill communists in their homes and proclaim how you're gonna buddy up with NATO and get out of the Warsaw pact.
"Reformers" in Czechoslovakia got plenty of leeway to do their little capitalism "with human face" until they gone full retard with undermining the defensive pact.

>Party man introduces market reforms that collapse the economy
<No this wasn't our fault!
But I blame MLs for the collapse lol
But not for the actions of the new capitalist state. This state has its own logic that has nothing to do with MLs.

I follow histmat, not some bitchass "Putin grew up in the soyviet union - that means all troubles of current Russia are because of the soyviet unun!!" psychologism

there is no place for psychological analysis in history as discipline if it wants to be more than tabloid fiction

>>458061
>now look at the composition of agrarian vs urban population
They had a wide industrial base, so they weren't agrarian.
>look at who were the first official soviet millionaires
There were not official soviet millionaries. There were millionaries in the underground black market in the USSR. But not from Gorby's reforms.
If it's such a truism than just post some proofs. I genuinely looked and found no evidence for it.
You're also missing the point, being a millionaire with a chain of restaurants doesn't make you the booj. You have to own entire sectors of the economy, or at least a significant portion of it. Someone like the owners of GM is in the bourgeois class, not someone that owns some shops.
All, and I mean all, major sectors of the economy remained under Soviet control, there were no sector that had even a plurality of privatization.
Show me the "Bill Gates" of the Soviet Union, or the "Jeff Bezos". There were none.

>>458068
>Burn someone's house down.
Lmao
what, you think Gaidar was a fucking Marxist-Leninist lol? They were fucking Chicago boys.

>>458069
>Party man introduces market reforms that collapse the economy
<No this wasn't our fault
>But I blame MLs for the collapse lol
Ummmm who made the system that collapsed under it's own weight. Was it Gorby or tankies like you?

>>458071
>There was a market reformist there, it's all their fault!
LMAO, tankies will never ever take responsibility for the failure of the system they built and killed anyone that tried to make it into anything but what they envisioned.
It's quite breathtaking really.

>>458071
>More deflection.
Tankies like you rolled over for neoliberals like Gaidar like the good little capitalist you are.

>>458044
>The Soviet Union gets the credit for destroying about 80% of the Nazi-forces
Uh….proofs?

>>458070
wow, you're far more retarded than I thought

>They had a wide industrial base, so they weren't agrarian.
Agrarian society is determined as a proportion of the population in the agrarian sector.

basic histmat goddamit

>There were not official soviet millionaries.
lol, by 88 there were

>There were millionaries in the underground black market in the USSR.
speculation, there are no proofs
western "economists" always solved inconsistencies in their analysis with the bottomless black hole of the mythical black market lol

>But not from Gorby's reforms.
wrong
and contrary to "black market" speculations we have actual material proofs like financial data

>I genuinely looked and found no evidence for it.
Look up Artem Tarasov lol

>You're also missing the point, being a millionaire with a chain of restaurants doesn't make you the booj. You have to own entire sectors of the economy, or at least a significant portion of it.
lol. LMAO.
what is even bourgeoisie even mean? what do words even mean lol?

According to marxism it makes you a booj. I don't care about your watered down petty-bourg "theories" of what akshully makes a bourgeoisie.

>All, and I mean all, major sectors of the economy remained under Soviet control, there were no sector that had even a plurality of privatization.
It doesn't matter what it says on the paper. Paper reflects reality, written law reflects reality.
Reality was that Planning mechanism was dismantled, Institutions destroyed, links severed. Everything else is history.

>>458069
>But I blame MLs for the collapse lol
>But not for the actions of the new capitalist state.
I blame MLs because they were state capitalists that wholly owned the MoP and purposely kept the working class from ever controlling it.
Tankies that aggrandize themselves as champions of workers left Russian workers in the most vulnerable position possible, shrugged their shoulders and left. All while still deflecting blame decades later.
The consequences of the very predictable and long warned about collapse of the command economy implosion are still being felt today.

>>458072
>Party man introduces market reforms that collapse the economy
<No this wasn't our fault
Where did I say this lol?
Perestroika was MLs fault. But to claim that the misery under restored capitalism is MLs fault too is asinine. As if capitalism has no own logic that leads to such disasters lol. It's all must be because of the logic of stalinism or some shit lol, when stalinism is long dead.

>>458065
>How about Balkans, Crimea, Finland etc etc? Hell, how about fucking France or Italy or Sicily?
<How about locations they would've had to fight the German navy to get to anyway, which they did fight? How about places smack dab in between the USSR and Germany deep in Reich territory? How about places you already explained why they took a long time to plan the invasion of? How about places they invaded in 1943?
How tf are you supposed to convince me you aren't a retard when you can't into history and know as much about geography as the average Texan burger?
>Nah, that would be just "too risky" and "premature" or some shit
So when the USSR signs a non-aggression pact and partitions Poland that's based realpolitik but when the Anglos and Yanks don't send millions to die to not actually capture France it's proof that they didn't want to hurt their poor pal Germany even though they bombed it to fucking ruins as soon as they could?

Do you fucktards genuinely think the US/UK coordinate their actions based on whatever is the most evil thing to do?
>But norther Africa, Egypt and Suez canal? Oh, Anglos will tell you that "we should've invaded yesterday!"
<Stupid Yankoid-Angloids, attacking Germany's logistics and resources bases before beginning their invasion of mainland Europe with soldiers that now have combat experience
>Germany was fucking stuck in the east chump, after the Battle of Moscow they relocated many of their western divisions to the east
Germany was able to fight for literally two fucking years with a two-front war after suffering massive losses of manpower and material; you're genuinely unironically retarded if you can look at that and rant about why le heckin westoids didn't just storm the beaches at the height of Germany's military power

It's funny how you're also trying to dodge around the fact that the US and UK were already at war with Germany longer than the Soviets did, who only even fought at all because they were invaded.
>what, you think it takes three fucking years to plan for a landing in Normandy?
Yes it actually can take literal years to plan the largest amphibious landing in history while also fighting Germany all around the world. Do you think real life is like your fucking paradox games?
>If you fuck around on your islands the whole war while occasionally getting out to protect your Suez canal and colonial possessions while the Soviets do all the actual fighting - then stay on your fucking islands and shut the fuck up how about you defeated nazism.
<Tankoid literally seething that he can't just browbeat people into blindly regurgitating his literal meme understanding of warfare and history

>>458077
Holy shit, WHY CAN'T TANKIES UNDERSTAND THIS SHIT, HOLY FUCK

It's like, guess what fucktard, IF THE WORKING CLASS ACTUALLY OWNED THE MOP PERESTROIKA AND SELLING OFF ALL THE USSR'S ASSETS COULDN'T HAVE HAPPENED

These fuckers think losing fucking wars disproves anarchism, yet ML party stooges becoming liberal capitalists then selling off all industries for pennies on the dollar doesn't delegitimize their own bullshit. Their fucking nonsense that the working class and state are somehow synonymous. The nonsense they spew about how the worker's controlled the government because bureaucrats and managers *technically* did not own the industries, except, oh shit who got to sell this shit off in the 90s again?

At least anarchists can honestly claim they never got a real chance, tankoids controlled 1/3 of the world and still fucked it up and unlike anarchists who were killed by their enemies these fuckers did it to themselves

Tf is worth respecting here at this point? They accomplished modernization? That's really all it is? They did things you can also credit fucking socdem capitalism for?

>>458077
>The consequences of the very predictable and long warned about collapse of the command economy implosion are still being felt today.
yes, the current Ukraine conflict is another crime of stalinism lol
How does he keep getting away with it?!
Is there a limit to the crimes of stalinism!! I'm sure a gazillion thousand years from now on when the sun will burn out it will STILL be another crime of Stalin.

>>458080
Ownership =/= control over

>>458077
>I blame MLs because they were state capitalists that wholly owned the MoP
is that why they gave away these MoP to literal nonames without even firing a bullet?

>Tankies that aggrandize themselves as champions of workers left Russian workers in the most vulnerable position possible, shrugged their shoulders and left. All while still deflecting blame decades later.
Blame for what? for failing? Or for the actions of restored capitalist state lol?

>>458076
>Agrarian society is determined as a proportion of the population in the agrarian sector.
It's determined by how much of the economy is agriculture.
>lol, by 88 there were
And you think 88 millionaires constitutes a bourgeois class in a a command economy?
>speculation, there are no proofs
There were attorneys in the west will millionaire black market business men clients.
>and contrary to "black market" speculations we have actual material proofs like financial data
Where?
>Look up Artem Tarasov lol
Finally, I looked him up. He had 3 million rubles. The exchange rate at the time was 50 rubles to the dollar. So he was making the salary of a middling dentist in the states. So yeah, like I said, petite booj.
>what is even bourgeoisie even mean? what do words even mean lol?
Owners of the MoP, like all of it. Not someone that owns a subway franchise.
This perverse reductionism is endemic among brainlet tankies. It's how you can justify throwing political dissents, artists and people that just didn't like you in gulags because their all "class collaborators" of the booj.
It's also how you can justify jumping at every shadow thinking it's a glowie.
>According to marxism it makes you a booj.
It doesn't make you haute booj.
>It doesn't matter what it says on the paper. Paper reflects reality, written law reflects reality.
Lol, so what you think people like Artem Tarasov making 100k in US dollars really controlled the Soviet economy, kek.

>>458078
>Perestroika was MLs fault.
>It was the press' fault, not all the graft and dysfunction it uncovered.
Tankies, not even once.

>>458083
>Blame for what? for failing? Or for the actions of restored capitalist state lol?
For creating an entirely avoidable economic calamity that lead millions of Russian children to suck dicks for food. That failure maybe?

>>458082
>Haha, the workers do own the MoP, they just have no control over it 🤡
The pretzels tankoids have to twist into to deflect criticism and blame lmao

Guess I'll just toss this into the same pile with
>Evil bourgeois science!
>Socialism doesn't mean worker's democracy, liberal
>Under communism we will bulldoze every forest
>The law of value will still operate under socialism!
>Artists should be shot for making artwork that isn't state propaganda!

>>458083
>Blame for what? For failure?
For starters, yes, fucking loser

You expect anarchists to take blame for not being smart enough to realize your idols would stab them in the back in between the ribs

You want ML to take credit for all its success (modernization and welfare) but none for its failure (creating a state structure workers had 0 control over, calling yourself socialist but admitting workers didnt actually control the MoP, literally selling out hundreds of millions of people to be rich)

Like shit, at least anarchists lost because their enemies killed them, MLs lost because after a while the heads of all but 3 ML governments didn't actually believe in anything lmao

>>458079
>How about locations they would've had to fight the German navy to get to anyway, which they did fight?
Are you implying german navy posed any real threat to Angloids lol?
It spent all war pinned in the baltic sea lol

there is no reason why angloids wouldn't have been able to land in Murmansk and attack Finland to relieve Leningrad for example
Or land in Norway. Or Denmark.

>How about places smack dab in between the USSR and Germany deep in Reich territory?
Anglos had superiority at the sea chump. Are you implying they wouldn't have been able to supply their troops in the Crimea or evacuate them if need be?

There is no reason why anglos wouldn't have been able to attack romania with its oil fields

war could've ended in fucking 43 if they did so lol

>How about places you already explained why they took a long time to plan the invasion of?
your explanation is shit
"b-b-but it takes three years to prepare a landing!!"

>How about places they invaded in 1943?
Yes, after Stalingrad where all Italians-romanians got BTFOd already and didn't even register on a radar anymore lol
Too little too late.

>So when the USSR signs a non-aggression pact and partitions Poland
lol. LMAO.
Of COURSE fucking pathetic angloid would get his "b-but muh ribbentrop pact! muh pooland!" card

The fucking nerve, when angloids enabled the fucking Hitler to invade Poland lol. You fucking created Hitler.

>when the Anglos and Yanks don't send millions to die to not actually capture France it's proof that they didn't want to hurt their poor pal Germany even though they bombed it to fucking ruins as soon as they could?
You didn't do jack shit when the soviets were bleeding begging for help.
Only when there was a real possibility of Soviets reaching La Manche you suddenly couldn't wait to open the second front lol
where were you earlier? Oh, yeah, you were fucking around on your islands doing jack shit and carpet bombing civilians for some reason lol

>Do you fucktards genuinely think the US/UK coordinate their actions based on whatever is the most evil thing to do?
well, targeting civs in a terror bombing campaign is a pretty fucked up thing to do if you ask me lol

>Stupid Yankoid-Angloids, attacking Germany's logistics and resources bases before beginning their invasion of mainland Europe with soldiers that now have combat experience
More like Italy and Germany were attacking Anglo logistics lol
or have already memoryholed angloid that the "Pearl" of your "Empire" was connected through the Suez canal. Do I really need to remind you what significance India had for you angloids?

>Germany was able to fight for literally two fucking years with a two-front war after suffering massive losses of manpower and material; you're genuinely unironically retarded if you can look at that and rant about why le heckin westoids didn't just storm the beaches at the height of Germany's military power
Weak limpdick excuses.
You should've stayed on your islands then, seamonkey. Soviets didn't need your "help" anyway in the end. They would've marched straight to La Manche without your pathetic ass.

>It's funny how you're also trying to dodge around the fact that the US and UK were already at war with Germany longer than the Soviets did, who only even fought at all because they were invaded.
What did US even do lol? And all England ever did was getting BTFOd on continent and then crawling back to their island and sitting there for the majority of ww2.

The actual ww2 was fought in the eastern europe. Seethe and cope angloid.

>Soviets did, who only even fought at all because they were invaded.
No shit huh. Or do you think Soviets should've cried crocodile tears for angloids who fucking enabled Hitler until he bit them in the ass?
It would've been glorious if Hitler actually committed to capturing England first. That ww2 would've been a whole another story. Soviet union would've completed its rearmament and good luck then attacking them.

But of course angloids get to get away with everything, with propping up fascism and enabling Hitler.

>Yes it actually can take literal years to plan the largest amphibious landing in history while also fighting Germany all around the world.
Where did they fight fucking germany "all around the world" lol? They sure didn't fight in europe when the soviet union needed it the most. They were fucking around on their islands.

Now remind me does the operation "Sea Lion" required three years of fucking around? Anglos had air superiority AND naval superiority for fuck's sake. limpdick excuses for why anglos sat on their asses and watched as nazi germany battled it out with the soviet union.

>>458085
>burn your house down, leaving you destitute and hungry
>Give back the ashes
I didn't know soviet industry that got sold for symbolic price was "ashes" lol
Why don't you look at the price that Norilsk Nickel was sold at and what its yearly turnover now
many such cases lol literally all of them

>>458086
you can't read
I said it wasn't a press fault
It was a degradation of vanguard fault

>>458087
>For creating an entirely avoidable economic calamity
I wonder why delusional dengoids and other capitalist bootlickers have this delusion that the soviet union could transition to "capitalism with a human face" through reform without a crash

perestroika reformers thought so too, and look what happened lol
if you unbalance the system, get rod of what gives it stability, it just might lose control and fucking crash, who would've thought lol!?

>>458098
I was referring to the economy which was in free fall.

>>458101
I never said that it should have transitioned to capitalism. The collapse happened because the Soviet system was authoritarian and therefore unreformable. Any real political opposition that could have shepherded a transition was long ago gulaged.

>>458098
>I didn't know soviet industry that got sold for symbolic price was "ashes" lol
The state was collapsing and any equity workers got they had to immediately sell just to keep food in their bellies. So what would have been a proper metaphor for that situation? A well built house?
This is all tankies operate on, technicalities, half truths and manipulation.

>>458100
You're too stupid to realize that censoring the press doesn't make the problem go away.

>>458092
>Oh, yeah, you were fucking around on your islands doing jack shit and carpet bombing civilians for some reason lol
>Fighting imperial Japan is doing jack shit
Oh lawd

>>458103
This is one of the things I notice tankies tend to absolutely refuse to understand
Maybe a one party state that was extremely centralized into the hands of a few individuals where the workers hypothetically “owned” the MoP but actually did not control it, just as they, as a whole, did not control the government; was literally the entire problem?
And the problem wasn’t that they didn’t transition into capitalism “right”, it’s that it turns out when the time came the workers couldn’t stop it from happening, the other factions of government either weren’t competent enough to stop it or didn’t actually want to, the former SSRs instantly feared capitalist Russia, the masses at least wanted some form of reform to the system; I mean holy shit what about any of this looks good to you or convinces you the stalinist model couldn’t even be the tiniest bit at fault? Like holy fuck, all but 2 ML countries transitioned to capitalism or otherwise at least capitulated to it, how do you cope your way out of these peoples’ own responsibility for it?

>>458092
>A long ramble of unsubstantiated conspiracy theories on why the US didn't actually help win WWII because they didn't do exactly what one tankie 70 years later thinks they should have done.
This old song and dance is getting old tankie, its your only parlor trick.
Whenever you can't disprove something you pretend to know "the real reason" for things based on nothing but your prejudices. You're exactly like /pol/.

>>458100
It’s funny how the fault never falls with the alienation of the masses from the state/party machinery but rather just the intellectual rot of cloistered intelligentsia who were the ones entrusted with and empowered over the fates of millions
Like holy shit how can you still not see the problem?

>>458103
>The collapse happened because the Soviet system was authoritarian and therefore unreformable.
>authoritarian
I don't like this word - it means nothing. vague ass bullshit.

but yes, it was unreformable

>Any real political opposition that could have shepherded a transition was long ago gulaged.
lol, who got gulaged you retard? name me one reformer lol
it was not 30s anymore

fucking stupid ass uygha spewing bullshit he heard from his stupid ass professor lol

>>458104
>So what would have been a proper metaphor for that situation?
"ashes" implies that it has no value, that it have burned to the ground

obviously not the case with the soviet legacy which was factories, trains, railways, etc etc

Don't lose the line of the discussion. You said nomenklatura didn't fight to keep their "collective property" because there was nothing to fight for, it was all "ashes". Which is wrong.

So your "collective owner" in this "soviet state capitalism" somehow didn't care that he lost all this property.
I see no holes in this argument lol.

>>458105
>You're too stupid to realize that censoring the press doesn't make the problem go away.
what do you think I'm doing here you stupid bitch?
I'm as anti-censorship as one could ever be. Bet you would sperg out and demand bans and jail sentences when you catch a glimpse of a loli anime titties. Or when someone would call you by a wrong pronoun lol.

>>458106
How was Japan relevant to the European theater?
Were were talking about who defeated the nazis, ie germans.
also Japan got stuck in China, which soviets supplied lol.

>>458107
>Maybe a one party state that was extremely centralized
from the get go - shit epithets
centralization and hierarchical structure are everywhere, it is a fact of fucking life anarchoid

there cannot be two supreme soviets or two ecclesias
that's just not how it works - there must always be one source of political power that is the last instance with the last word

it's because you're dishonest that I despise you, because you would replicate the same shit that you criticize MLs for, while claiming the opposite lol

>the workers hypothetically “owned” the MoP but actually did not control it, just as they, as a whole, did not control the government; was literally the entire problem?
it was one of the problems, not the only problem
democracy is not magic
there are limits to everything, humans do not make history as they please

>And the problem wasn’t that they didn’t transition into capitalism “right”, it’s that it turns out when the time came the workers couldn’t stop it from happening, the other factions of government either weren’t competent enough to stop it or didn’t actually want to
yes

>the masses at least wanted some form of reform to the system
yes

>the former SSRs instantly feared capitalist Russia
nah, the former SSRs were too busy with primitive accumulation by looting the soviet legacy
all of them
even proles took part in this bacchanalia when they were allowed to privatize their houses that the soviet union gave them

fucking worms

>I mean holy shit what about any of this looks good to you or convinces you the stalinist model couldn’t even be the tiniest bit at fault?
I separate stalinist economic model and stalisnit political model

I don't see anything wrong with the stalinist economics, in this I'm a stalinist I guess

>Like holy fuck, all but 2 ML countries transitioned to capitalism or otherwise at least capitulated to it, how do you cope your way out of these peoples’ own responsibility for it?
shit happens
only idealist anarchoids and dogmatoids expect ideal circumstances like in their dogmatic scriptures

the soviet experiment gave us plenty of data to pore over and try to make sense of it, I couldn't ask for anything more really

>>458135
>centralization and hierarchical structure are everywhere, it is a fact of fucking life anarchoid
Yea man, congrats, nothing separates what you want from a class society by your own admission, kill yourself
> there cannot be two supreme soviets or two ecclesias
>that's just not how it works - there must always be one source of political power that is the last instance with the last word
So now you’re just telling me the limits of what you could even imagine as a society as though they are facts?
The Bolsheviks and Stalin sought to create a country that the masses had no control over and a state that was never meant to “wither away” in any circumstance; like my actual desire is communism and I don’t give a fuck about the Soviet Union, so….
> it's because you're dishonest that I despise you, because you would replicate the same shit that you criticize MLs for, while claiming the opposite lol
Yea, I’m the “dishonest” one
No, as this section of your rambling implies, you despise me because I do not agree with you, which tends to be the tankie, even Marxist way; to despise and wish to slaughter all who merely disagree. It’s part of how people recognize your goal isn’t actually communism and may not even really be socialism either.
>only idealist anarchoids and dogmatoids expect ideal circumstances like in their dogmatic scriptures
Lmao, imagine a tankoid calling anyone else “dogmatic”
Your “ideology” is effectively a fucking cult where you masturbate to how “scientific” a fucking sociological analysis is, rant and rave about heresy “revisionism”, and historically tend to slaughter people who have a nearly identical ideology to you but vaguely disagree about something or just, idk, stand in the way of someone holding political power.

Anyway just skipped to this since the rest is basically you going
>You’re right, BUT FUCK YOU ANYWAY ANARCHOID
Sad shit

>>458135
>the soviet experiment gave us plenty of data to pore over and try to make sense of it, I couldn't ask for anything more really
Also imagine talking about people’s fucking lives like it’s a video game or a bloody science experiment; yea millions of deaths, mass poverty, child prostitution; gee just a mistake. But hey, as tankies say “Better to murder an innocent than to spare an enemy!”

This is why people fucking despise you by the way, and why you deserve it. Because despite all your bullshit pretensions, faux morality, and rehearsed “love” for the working class; at the end of the day you view workers as pawns, see yourselves as the one truly worthy of controlling “leading” them, and are perfectly willing to throw away their lives as if they are worth nothing.

You deserve all the hate you get

>>458134
>How was Japan relevant to the European theater?
The were allies, and you're just trying to walk everyone to the idea that the US didn't fight in Europe. Which is such a stupid lie I'm not sure why you're even trying.

>>458133
>I'm as anti-censorship as one could ever be.
No you're not, you just said the USSR should have never allowed for a free press.
>Bet you would sperg out and demand bans and jail sentences when you catch a glimpse of a loli anime titties. Or when someone would call you by a wrong pronoun lol.
>Muh SJW strawman
Holy shit

>>458137
>This is why people fucking despise you by the way, and why you deserve it. Because despite all your bullshit pretensions, faux morality, and rehearsed “love” for the working class; at the end of the day you view workers as pawns, see yourselves as the one truly worthy of controlling “leading” them, and are perfectly willing to throw away their lives as if they are worth nothing.
Are there any tankies online who are not like this? Surely just by the law of averages there must. But I have never met one.

>>458132
>"ashes" implies that it has no value, that it have burned to the ground
The "ashes" I was referring to were the destroyed relations to the means of production that Soviet citizens no longer had to even a dysfunctional command economy.

>>458109
>It’s funny how the fault never falls with the alienation of the masses from the state/party machinery but rather just the intellectual rot of cloistered intelligentsia who were the ones entrusted with and empowered over the fates of millions
Like holy shit how can you still not see the problem?
This should be tattooed onto the forehead of every tankei.

>>458209
>Are there any tankies that are not like this

No. Also, fix'd