>>454616>The thing is micro exchanges will happen under a socialist and communist economic system. Petty exchanges of goods are not our concern nore should they be.
Fair enough but why shouldn't we try to invent money-less economic tools for that too.
>I'm saying that because at the individual level, having cash-on-hand and immediate decision making, is more effective than having to enter the details of a transaction into a form.
Cybernetic bartering was meant as replacement for ebay where you trade in second hand goods. In general the socialist cybernetic planning system uses labor vouchers instead of money that does have immediate decision making like cash, it's just that the labor vouchers don't circulate like money, that means they are destroyed after they were used for a purchase.
>Plus the bigger issue of transactions on entirely new ventures that are beyond the form. New paradigms, innovation, etc.. This is exactly why having the means of production(including financing risk) in the workers hands can defeat capitalism. You don't need the new idea to be profitable for a capitalist to invest. Instead, an individual, a small group of individuals, or a commune, could agree to do it based only on social need.
The socialist cybernetics system will enable workers to have control over their workplace, that doesn't need money based financing. In fact a economic accounting system that uses accounting based on material resources and human labor input will be much better for this. But this isn't really related to trading second hand goods, because that doesn't involve any production.
>But you lose that advantage if the control over production is completely centralized.
In socialist cybernetics the only thing that will be centralized somewhat is calculating the economic planning, but the control over that will be collective. The places where people work will be less concentrated than in capitalism because cybernetics doesn't use anything like firms or companies, since there are no capitalists that need to put workers into economic boxes that can be bought and sold.
>People need access to credit. Not capitalist credit.
Why would we have credit in socialism ? Credit means making dept, why would we even bother having a negative number in our accounting system, there are no negative amounts of good or services, and there is no negative labor either.
>And the easiest solution is what cockshott already is doing in another place. Let everyone exchange labor notes. As long as theres no exploitation of labor in the production process(which is something that has to be policed, like slavery), the circuit of capital won't happen and capitalism can't come back. Not anymore than serfdom can come back now.
No you don't understand the reason why labor notes can't be exchanged between people, it has nothing to do with preventing exploitation, the reason is that labor notes can't be a commodity with a market value. They represent an objective measurement of time. One hour has to be one hour. If you make labor vouchers exchangeable like money it will have fluctuating value like money and then you are going to have a situation where one hours = 55 minutes one day and 65 minutes the next day. That will screw up our attempts at making the economy use labor-power as efficiently as possible. That's not just pedantic economism, it's very important because people really hate it if you waste their time.
If you want to have peer to peer transactions, i guess that's fair, but we can find a moneyless solution for that too. These days not a lot of that is happening anymore, so I'm a bit short on real world examples to base this on.
I hope you understand my motivation here, there is an ideological struggle about inserting money and markets into socialism, and we should at least ideologically have a vision of socialism without any money in it, because the people that are abusing power to attack us and strip us of our dignity as humans are using financial power to do that. And this is about ideologically reducing that power to zero.