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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

"The anons of the past have only shitposted on the Internets about the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it."
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File: 1641545780518.jpg ( 498.25 KB , 1280x720 , 985499.large.jpg )

 No.453832

I'm really enjoying all of the videogame journalists pissing and shidding themselves over the gold rush game publishers are in over NFTs.

Practically every major publisher is promising to integrate NFTs into games and some like Sega, are already selling them now.

One legitimate criticism of NFTs are their environmental impact. But every media talking head that brings this up never spoke out against the Iraq War that irradiated entire cities with depleted uranium munitions, or the Pentagon, who is the number single emitter of greenhouse gases.

So I'm with the crypto bros on this one say this is sour grapes on people that missed out on the ground floor of this get-rich-quick scheme.

I also see this as anger from the burger settler class who are now really getting priced out of the middle class lifestyle in earnest to the point where their steady diet of new videogames may soon be out of their reach. As someone who grew up poor and was always priced out of these type of consumerist leisure goods I relish their anguish.

Another example of this is when Settlers (read white people) shidded themselves over Disney's new $2000 a night Stars Wars themed hotel. As they rightfully saw this as a new trend in Disneyland Theme Parks where they will soon only cater to the 1%. I never got to go to Disneyland when I was young and was told by these same Settlers that I shouldn't be upset because I can live without it. Ironically, it's them who will now live without it while I can actually still afford to go.

And game journalists are particularly hypocritical because we've seen none scarce digital goods sold for 20+ years now, first with iTunes, and then with Amazon with books, and later Steam with games. No one every questioned the environmental impact of these systems.

Overall I think NFTs will be a net good for the proletariat, it will provide a second hand market of digital goods that proles have already spent billions on, and put a lot of equity in their pocket.

I know there's been a lot of cringe shenanigans around NFTs, like crumby jpegs going for 100's of thousands of dollars. But that kind of foolishness will subside. If people are going to buy infinitely copy-able digital assets like their scarce physical goods, they might as well have a way to resell them.

What do you guys think?
>>

 No.453836

>>453832
Scarcity for digital goods is unbelievably retarded, and it doesn't help the proletariat in any way. The proletariat wants abundance.
It can't be justified with , "but it makes people mad that i don't like over a disagreement about a theme park" , that's not a valid argument.
That's bourgeois bait tactic to get people to support capitalism. If you support capitalism because it harms some people you hate, and then they support capitalism because it harms you in some other way, you are both colossal idiots that got got, because both gave the bourgeoisie approval to fuck you over.

If you do not want to be a moron you either reject or support something on the basis of merit.

NFTs are most likely a money laundering front, i would avoid it.
>>

 No.453837

Holy fuck how did the settlers fags find their way here?
NFTs are cancer and the reason Sony and everyone under the sun is scrambling to get them involved is because the internet has been a major thorn in the sides of every Bourgeois since the 90s.

The internet has always held and embodied the spirit of freedom and (up to the last 5 years) anything that they could sell could be found on the internet (reletively easily) and for free. Things in the inter were and should be free. But, now with net neutrality being abolished making NFTs feasible the modern enclosures of the internet can finally complete itself. Retarded zoomers who have never had a free internet will eat it up too. Fuck NFTs and fuck cringe idpol seller fags.
>>

 No.453838

>>453836
>It can't be justified with , "but it makes people mad that i don't like over a disagreement about a theme park" , that's not a valid argument.
That wasn't my argument though, I said that if people are going to pay for digital assets like they're physical goods then they might as well do it in a way that lets them resell it.
I wish people would embrace libre software and copyleft media, but there's not sign that they will.
>>453837
You're stupid as fuck, net neutrality or the lack thereof has nothing to do with NFTs.
>>

 No.453841

>>453836
>It can't be justified with , "but it makes people mad that i don't like over a disagreement about a theme park"
You really missed the point. It's not about the theme park. It's about the middle class lifestyle that I was always locked out of until recently. And now those same people that ignored my concerns then are demanding sympathy and action from me now over the exact same concern.
Regardless, it was just color commentary, the fact that I'm relishing the schadenfreude is irrelevant to everything else I was saying.
>>

 No.453952

File: 1641885561842.png ( 78.89 KB , 600x600 , hyperlet.png )

>Overall I think NFTs will be a net good for the proletariat
Whew, lad.
>>

 No.453953

>>453952
It's like you didn't even read what I posted.
>>

 No.453955

>>453954
The digital commons have been closed for over 20 years since iTunes. NFTs will allow for a used market instead of perpetually renting licenses in walled gardens which has been becoming more of a problem as these closed platforms are shut down or accounts are closed and the consumer is just left holding an empty bag.
I'm not a fool, just a realist. The state already BTFO'd mainstream pirating. Copyleft and Libre Software ain't happening for media anytime soon, deal with it.
>>

 No.453957

>>453956
Pirating is still wide spread you retard.
Is that why streaming is bigger than broadcast television now?
>you can easily pirate anything on the surface web you don't even need to go to tor.
No, wrong. Just because this is intuitive to you doesn't mean it is to normies.
>The feds haven't stopped anything.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Nibba, they just put a couple of IPTV devs behind bars for pirating soccer matches. Before that they were arresting XBOX and PS4 firmware hackers because of the POSSIBILITY that their tools could be used to pirate games.
>It's just retards like you who don't understand anything.
brah…
>Pushing NFT's is just the nail in the coffin and you should be banned.
So you think being tethered to a server run by Apple, who can delete or shit at anytime for any reason is better?
>>

 No.453958

>>453957
*who can delete your shit
>>

 No.453960

>>453959
>Just become something is bigger doesn't mean it isn't rampant you moron.
*giggle* Okay, what does it mean then?
>Tons of people still pirate shit.
If too many people did it they'd just crack down on it. Which they have done many times. Do you know what the DCMA is? You're not even legally allowed to look at the code for DRM (Digital Rights Management).
And no, the average person does not know how to pirate. Most ISP will disconnect you if they catch you tormenting anything and most people do not know how to cover their tracks.
>Even if it was true that doesn't mean we should jsut give up.
NFTs can act like a bridge potentially to a more libre copyleft future.
>Piss off with your retarded NFT shilling fag.
I'm not shilling, holy shit, calm you tiddies. You know there's nothing about NFTs that stops people from pirating right?
>>

 No.453962

>>453960
>You're not even legally allowed to look at the code for DRM
They are going back to thought crimes ?
Like in the middle ages.

That's not acceptable. Intellectual freedom is not negotiable, these are true enemies of the people
>>

 No.453965

>>453961
You’re a retard who’s never pirated anything if you think ISPs and Movie studios never do anything about piracy.
>>

 No.453966

>>453961
>Use a VPN or route all your traffic over tor.
Tor prohibits large file transfers, just STFU retard.
>>

 No.453968

>>453967
A BitTorrent pointer isn’t a movie dumbass.
>>

 No.453972

>>453969
If Zeronet some how defeats Tor's protection against large file transfers that's impressive, but I think you're just bullshitting.
Anyway, if you think the average person could or even knows how to do that than your full of shit.
>>

 No.453973

>>453961
>Use a VPN
A VPN won't protect you if they subpoena them. No one's going to go to jail for you.
Some VPNs accept anonymous payments but you have to find them. Not something a normie is going to be able to do.
>>

 No.453982

>>453972
>>453966
>>453967
>>453968
>>453969
>>453972
>>453973
I think you are missing an important point, peer to peer file sharing is a very good distribution system but just using it for piracy is wasting some of the potential, because it side steps the question of who decides about what goes int the content. Ideally you would build up an entirely crowd funded content industry with open source franchises.
>>

 No.453985

>>453972
>Literally not understanding anything he's talking about.
>>

 No.453986

>>453985
You can't pirate over Tor. And if you have any DNS leaks then your ISP will catch you.
The point is all this is beyond most people's abilities. And you're not going to convince people to learn about all this when it's easier to pay $15 a month.
>>

 No.454010

>>453982
My point is that you can't file share large files over Tor. And from what I understand about zeronet is that it's difficult to setup.
The argument was about how easy piracy is, and how this makes NFTs a scam. But piracy is not easy at scale and is actively being fought where it is happening.
>>

 No.454013

>>454010
It really does. There's literally a torrent for everything and my point was that you thinking BitTorrent is a "large file transfer" of which tor is completely capable of anyways tells me you don't know what you are talking about.

ZeroNet is easy to set up as well. You just need a little technical knowledge that you could learn by reading the manual.
>>

 No.454014

>>454013
>So what's the fix? There are two answers here. The first answer is "don't run Bittorrent over Tor". We've been saying for years not to run Bittorrent over Tor, because the Tor network can't handle the load; perhaps these attacks will convince more people to listen.
https://blog.torproject.org/bittorrent-over-tor-isnt-good-idea/
Straight from the horse's mouth. Plus downloading a torrent deanonyomizes you anyway.
>>

 No.454015

>>454013
>Please do not torrent over Tor.
>Tor Browser will block browser plugins such as Flash, RealPlayer, QuickTime, and others: they can be manipulated into revealing your IP address.
https://www.torproject.org/download/
>>

 No.454016

>>454013
When you torrent over tor exir node operators get hit with DMCA cease and desists since the exit traffic is sniffed. Most Tor nodes don't allow BitTorrent traffic becuase of that. It's you who has clearly never torrented over Tor. On top of all this Tor's average speed is .2 MB a minute.
>>

 No.454023

The truth is that you're just looking for political cover for what is a selfish position. NFTs are not good. The expansion of property rights to encompass digital media is bad, just like its expansion to include water rights and eventually air rights. It's just capitalism running out of grifts and finding (inventing) a new market to hold itself up. Only instead of the ancien regime of

Yes, the majority of NFTs are owned by "settlers" aka white techbros. Idk how you got the braindead idea that it is some sort of reparation or emancipation project you are beyond stupid.

>>454014
Wrong. I got warnings from the ISP all the time when I downloaded without VPN. Then I started downloading big studio shit over VPN and never got a warning. So yeah, get bent luddite.
>>

 No.454024

The whole entire Internet should be outlawed tbh
>>

 No.454027

>>454023
>Wrong. I got warnings from the ISP all the time when I downloaded without VPN. Then I started downloading big studio shit over VPN and never got a warning. So yeah, get bent luddite.
VPN providers turn over on their customers all the time. And you said Tor, not VPN.
The goalposts on this have been moved about a dozen times now. I'm not going to engage anymore. I'll just say this:
1.) It's not practical and often not possible to pirate over Tor.
2.) VPN is not the panacea you make it out to be, for one many VPN providers themselves ban known copyrighted torrents.
And they'll all comply with law enforcement requests. You have to do a lot of vetting to effectively protect yourself from prosecution from copyright holders via VPNs.

3.) There was a huge struggle over torrents in the 2000's that Hollywood largely won.

4.) Zeronet is not well known and not trivial to set up.

>The truth is that you're just looking for political cover for what is a selfish position. NFTs are not good.


NFTs are a done deal. I'd like to have an adult conversation about their implications. Moralizations about how they're the devil aren't useful to me.

NFT's will give a lot of equity to workers who after 20 years of buying digital often have collections in the 5 and sometimes 6 figures.

And much of the criticism of NFTs like money laundering or energy use are not unique to NFTs. 99% of the critics of the NFTs were deafly silent when the US Military was proven to be the largest emitter of greenhouse gases, or the money laundering that uncovered by the Panama Papers, The Pandora papers or the HBSC Scandal. But are oddly concerned about these issues when a technology comes along that is decentralizing fiance to a lot of new people.
So these critics are not genuinely concerned with these problems. They are afraid of the changes crypto might bring.
>>

 No.454028

>>454027
*after 20 years of buying digital content
>>

 No.454041

File: 1642241041793.gif ( 1.65 MB , 300x169 , hah, oh you.gif )

>>454027
>There was a huge struggle over torrents in the 2000's that Hollywood largely won.
>>

 No.454059

>>454027
zeronet takes a pretty reasonable approach to decentralized networks imo. I'd way rather use it than NNTPchan or Urbit…

Fuck crypto as a whole though. Stuff like Matrix and Pleroma work just fine without "blockchain". Blockchain is kind of good for currency but not great for much else. simplicity is the highest form of sophistication, less is more

See:
https://csvchain.com/
>>

 No.454148

File: 1643056629945.png ( 367.14 KB , 892x892 , 1643054744535.png )

>>454023
>>453961
>>453956
>>453954
>>453952
t. seething poorfags
>>453837
>>

 No.454348

File: 1644608758291.png ( 430.83 KB , 1440x2960 , Screenshot_20220211-124410.png )

>>

 No.454363

Florida home to be sold in novel non-fungible token deal
https://archive.ph/aAZAh
>>

 No.454364

>>454363
Please god just end my suffering. I can't take this world anymore.
>>

 No.454365

>>454364
What are you talking about, Real Estate NFTs are based. Price discovery on real estate will happen instantaneously just like crypto instead of taking month or even years like it does not.
>>

 No.454366

>>454365
*does now.
>>

 No.454369

>>454368
Pirating is illegal, and ISP keep track of all the public torrents. That's why there's private trackers. You're full of shit BTW, ISPs will definately cut off the internet and studios demonstratably file DCMAs against ISPs.
>>

 No.454370

>>454369
Holy shit just use a VPN. Literally any VPN will work.
>>

 No.454371

>>454370
Nibba Shut up, those things leak DNS requests if you don't set them up right. You don't know anything.
>>

 No.454442

>>453832
NFTs are real goods, they don't exist in reality, I don't know how they have any value?
>>

 No.454443

>>454442
They're receipts for digital goods, which do exist.
Only burgers with bad cases of unwarranted self importance are still debating the morality of NTFs. NFTs are here to stay, get with the times boomer.
>>

 No.454448

>>454443
Digital goods don't exist you fucking faggot. NFTs fly in the face of everything the internet has ever been and stood for since it's inception. Eat a bag of shit covered dicks you whore.
>>

 No.454454

>>454448
The internet stood for command and control and maintaining the system after a nuclear strike, not some concept of freedom of information. NFTs are very much in line with that.

I'm just surprised that the neoliberal scam has been allowed to go on this long. If something was going to happen, though, it had to happen in 2008, and it certainly wasn't going to happen. Boomers don't rebel, Millennials really don't rebel.
>>

 No.454455

Anyway Squenix sucks and the only actually good RPG they made was the original Final Fantasy. Even that was a buggy mess and sort of an accident / creation of desperation, and it was good in part because the limitations of games at the time didn't let them go down the path that really ruined the games and RPGs generally. FF1 was only good because it stuck to being a D&D ripoff on consoles, and it was a pretty well put together one.

I guess if you include the Enix side the Dragon Quest games were good for what they were, but DQ3 is the only one that was really legendary. Anyway, RPGs are timewaster games for shut-ins and losers. Hiroshi Yamauchi was right to call them so when berating people who didn't like the lack of RPGs on N64. They're really games for children / tweens, not grown-ass people. It's like, "yay, here's a story and a world to explore, learn to read and shit". There are better adventure games without the jank of RPG batlte mechanics.
>>

 No.454457

>>454454
The internet as it became a cultural force has stood for none of that you faggot. Fuck off.
>>

 No.454458

>>454448
Digital goods like software exist. So do in game items. Both have been treated like commodities since at least the mid 2000's when World of Warcraft marketplaces were operating.
Nintendo just announced they are shuting down their estore for the WiiU and 3DS. This is a perfect example of a problem NFTs could solve. Instead of being screwed out of millions of dollars of games, customers can now prove they purchased these games in a way Nintendo doesn't control, and maybe sue or at least show other potential customers how badly they've been screwed. As of now, it just disappears into a black hole.
>>

 No.454459

>>454457
The opening of the internet was very much a planned, controlled rollout of new surveillance technology. Can't surveil people unless they're actually using the thing at a large scale. You seem to think the tech revolution was your idea, or something that just occurred by happenstance. You never had the internet as something that was truly yours. When the internet was opened up for commercialization, there were already ways to capitalize on digital property. It didn't matter immediately if people used the internet to pirate shitty computer games, and this piracy wasn't even that big a loss in revenue. The internet to most people who aren't Extremely Online is Amazon, MSN, Yahoo, and later on social media that was always oligarch-controlled. The Extremely Online were even more controlled than the normies, because I recall the old days and influencers were around then just as they are now - nowhere near as common as they are now, but it was easy enough to spin content on the internet and spew out propaganda en masse. So when did the internet become a cultural force, except when it was controlled predominantly by the oligarchs? Back in 2000 people weren't using the internet as a cultural force, but to share fucking flash animations and cat gifs. The whole "elite old school internet culture" is more myth than what actually happened, and that was still very much controlled. If you got too dangerous, you could be merked by the FBI. A bunch of pissants thought they were more important than they actually were, having built internet echo chambers to talk themselves up with a bunch of shit. For the most part though, the commercial internet stood for business and silly shit. If the internet was actually used for educational use in any sort of efficient manner, it would undermine the kind of society that the neoliberals wanted to create, and so the neoliberals made damn sure that was never, ever going to happen in any way.
>>

 No.454462

File: 1645528196579.png ( 3.39 MB , 1080x1920 , blank_tradingcard.png )

>>454458
But you're missing the point because the true nature of these goods is infinitely reproducible and coypable. That's why what I think you're saying is such a rediculous notion because what we are witnessing is a second enclosures on the internet not some how the "nature of the internet" is porky. Preposterous.

>>454459

>The opening of the internet was planned


Meds

>You seem to think the tech revolution was your idea


The tech revolution was a historical force in the 90sbwhen HTTP started to dominate over services like Gopher (yes the internet you use now isn't the only internet) there were mainly two camps: You had Microsoft and the monopolists and the free software types like Stahlman Torvolds.


You're all buying directly into propoganda used against free soft wear since the very begging. The inter is and should always be free. It's capitalism and capitalists that have encroached upon our territory. Stop giving them legitimacy.

>The Extremely Online were even more controlled than the normies, because I recall the old days and influencers were around then just as they are now - nowhere near as common as they are now, but it was easy enough to spin content on the internet and spew out propaganda en masse.


Can't have a gay argument like this with out a false dichotomy. Back in the 90s it was pretty simple for anyone to set up a computer server and host some data and technically that is still true today. Anyone can go eat a server but the corporate monopolies now control SO MUCH that everyone just uses their services. They have a virtual monopoly in the industry. It's amazing to me how faggot yuppies will pontificate endlessly about shit they know nothing about.

Must love to hear themselves speak.

Back in 2000 you could do what you wanted on the internet with out the fear of reprisal and that is the point I am making. The internet was a vast ocean to plumb and now that we'll has dried up due to the influence of capitalism and it's expansion. As I stated earlier we are witnessing a second enclosures.

The tech revolution really kicked off in the early 90s with HTTP 1.0 btw cause you asked.
>>

 No.454463

>>454462
>You had Microsoft and the monopolists and the free software types like Stahlman Torvolds.
>The internet was a vast ocean to plumb and now that we'll has dried up due to the influence of capitalism and it's expansion. As I stated earlier we are witnessing a second enclosures.

I agree with that in parts, but the enclosure of the internet is not like the enclosure of the commons in the 1800s that Marx wrote about. The peasants that had their land enclosed were a huge mass of people that were forced into industrial wage production. For the internet age, the people that were technical enough to be free in the preceding decades are still free. What happened was that the masses never had this freedom and they were blocked by capitalism from getting it. Another point of difference is that the people that got trapped by capitalism in proprietary systems are not getting payed a wage. So it's not like the industrial revolution at all, back then people got payed and while the proletarianized peasants were trapped doing wage work, they were not locked into a specific factory, they could switch to working in a different factory. The proprietary internet capitalism has user lock-in. Facebook isn't a factory, it's a plantation.

I think that the equivalent of the industrial revolution has not happened yet for the information age. In the industrial revolution people were using ever more sophisticated machine tools to produce ever more output, for the information age that would be the equivalent of the majority of people programming computers. But most people just use computers like manual labor tools, comparable to a shovel, not a tractor, there is no technological force multiplication, no productivity explosion. And with the industrial revolution came modernity and the scientific revolution. The big proprietary information capitalist are not promoting scientific thinking or the values of the enlightenment.

>You're all buying directly into propoganda used against free soft wear since the very begging. The inter is and should always be free. It's capitalism and capitalists that have encroached upon our territory. Stop giving them legitimacy.


I agree with that in parts as well, but the early internet freedom also came with early internet unavailability for the majority of people. There is encroachment by capitalism, but it's coming from a different direction than you think. One important thing to keep in mind is that hardware has never been free or open, and it's easy to loose track of that if your concern is software freedom. I think that we are in a different age then you think. Free and open hardware is just now getting started. If Stahlman represents the free operating system, and Torvalds the free kernel, there still is an empty spot for free hardware. I think there might also be a forth thing missing, a free network infrastructure, but I'm not sure.
>>

 No.454464

>>454462
>But you're missing the point because the true nature of these goods is infinitely reproducible and coypable.
Practicality nothing in capitalism is scarce, you have your panties in a bunch because you are ignorant of that fact and are only familar with the non scarcity of digital goods.
Used markets are good for proles, corps retaining de facto ownership like now of digital good is bad.
None of the people like you crying about NFTs say anything about iTunes, Steam or even Netflix.
You're booty mad property owner angry that worker might retain some of the equity in the digial goods they purchase.
>>

 No.454465

>>454462
>The opening of the internet was planned
>Meds
The opening of the internet was planned. Ecommerce sites like Amazon were not charged sales taxes for decades which added up to 100 of billions of dollars in tax breaks.
The internet itself was created by the DoD to help with the Vietnam war. Google's search engine tech was funded by DARPA. These aren't even secrets, you can find gov agencies boasting about them. You can see on the Wayback Machine the first Google webpage stamped with the phrase "sponsored by DARPA" at the bottom of the page.
Would you please stop talking, I'm not even sure where you're getting your ideology from, these knee jerk reactions seem pulled straight from your ass.
>>

 No.454469

>>454463
>I agree with that in parts as well, but the early internet freedom also came with early internet unavailability for the majority of people.
Fucking this, the internet was never free. The majortiy of people in the 90's and 2000's did not own a PCs whch even cheap ones ran as much as $2000 in inflation adjusted dollars.
The ambiquity of the internet did not begin until the 2010's with smart phones.
I'd argue the financing of smartphones was more important than the tech since workers could sign up for 2 and 3 year cell phone plans that amortized the cost of the smart phone. They would extend these offers to anyone with a pulse while PCs were still financed traditionally and required good credit.
>>

 No.454471

>>454465
>X was created and funded by Y so it's Z

Do you realize how dumb that is? I bet you are one of the retards who think tor is compromised because it was funded by the navy and is still funded by the government. You should stop talking because you have no idea what you are talking about or what things were like during these periods.

>>454469

uygha please everyone had cheap ass desktops in the early 2000s dells were going for 400 dollars a piece. Stfu you people are so fucking retarded you have no idea what you are talking about none.

No one said the internet was free but it was more open than it is today by a long shot. To bad you zoomers missed it cause it was pretty neat.
>>

 No.454473

>>454471
>uygha please everyone had cheap ass desktops in the early 2000s dells were going for 400 dollars a piece.
Lol no, those prices didn't reflect the real cost. You needed a semi robust system to run Windows XP, not to mention a phone line on top of internet service, a monitor, a printer and somewhere to put all that shit. Not everyone lived in a comfy ranch sytle subrurb like you.
This doesn't even get into the technical barriers of owning and operating a PC.
>>X was created and funded by Y so it's Z
Uh, yes….problem?
>>

 No.454474

>>454473
*comfy ranch sytle suburb single family home like you
>>

 No.454475

>>454471
>The opening of the internet was planned, here's a lenghty list of all the money, research and legislation that proves it.
<Ha, you think THAT makes it planned?
>>

 No.454476

>>454471
>uygha please everyone had cheap ass desktops in the early 2000s
The numbers don't lie, smartphone sales have dwarfted PC sales since 2008. Also most PC sales are to businesses, making the amount of regular people using them even smaller.
>>

 No.454477

>>454476
Sure but what is your point? 2010 isn't the period of time anyone who says the internet was better is when anyone is talking about early 2000s is what I explicitly said. Cope.
>>

 No.454478

>>454477
Are you retarded, the pre smart phone internet was a middle class country club. It was closed off to the poor, that's what we've been arguing about.
>>

 No.454479

>>454457
>The internet as it became a cultural force has stood for none of that you faggot.
LMAO, how far up your own ass do you need to be to believe this.
>>

 No.454482

>>454478
Define "middle class" 400 dollar dells with 1 gif of ram were affordable to even the most humble trailer trash sorry.

>>454479
I'm sorry you have brain damage anon. Sorry to hear that.
>>

 No.454483

>>454482
>Define "middle class"
A home owner.
>I'm sorry you have brain damage anon. Sorry to hear that.
Dude, you're the one that things pre smartphone internet was a "cultural force". Your lack of self aweareness is staggering.
>>

 No.454484

>>454483
>Define "middle class"
<A home owner.
Not that anon, China has 90% homeownership, does that make China have a 90% middle class ? Can we call it middle income bracket instead ?, class should be reserved for Marxist stuff like relations to the means of production.
>>

 No.454485

>>454484
>Not that anon, China has 90% homeownership, does that make China have a 90% middle class ?
Can the Chinese withdraw equity from their home and use it like an investment?
>class should be reserved for Marxist stuff like relations to the means of production.
Marx himself talked about the middle class, just because they don't have a different relation to the MoP doesn't mean they aren't a distinct political animal, especially post WWII Settler middle class.
You Western Tankie .orges want to pretend there's no middle class because you are all from the middle class.
>>

 No.454488

>>454485
So if it's about equity, just say that.
>Marx himself talked about the middle class
I know, but middle income strata is less ambiguous, and you don't have to specify what you mean with class if you keep a single definition.

Usually people that say the sakaist idpol words are petit bourgoise who oppose welfare and labor rights, but they usually don't say the t-word that usually is reserved for neoliberal careerists that want to purge class conscious Marxists or anti imperialists from leftist organizations. So i can't quite place you. I'm not trying to pretend there is no middle income strata, i just want socialists to keep the means of production as their goal, that's where the real power is, the m.o.p. should not be obfuscated away in theory.
>>

 No.454489

>>454488
>So if it's about equity, just say that.
It's about private property, you can net profit on private property. If you can't do that then that property is not wholly private.
>>

 No.454490

>>454488
>So i can't quite place you.
Because I am not a dogmatic Marxist spooked by my own ideolgy.
Historical materialism and Marxism are tools. Tools that I apply to current material conditions which contain many nuances that Marx was never privy too. I invite a good faith crituque of my analysis but westerm marxists prove over and over they can't do that because so often they have to critque their own real politics.
>>

 No.454492

>>454491
You're the one that can't follow a conversation. You were lamenting that the internet was becoming an enclosed commons, and me and another anon had to school you on the fact that it was always endowed l enclosed.
>>

 No.454493

>>454489
>It's about private property, you can net profit on private property. If you can't do that then that property is not wholly private.
Yeah but most people use their homes to live in, and that makes it personal property.

>>454490
>Because I am not a dogmatic Marxist spooked by my own ideolgy.
I'm just trying to have correct theory, what has changed since Marx's time that we should no longer focus on productive forces ? The Chinese communists have focused on the m.o.p. and it won them a lot of power. The theory seems to be correct.
>>

 No.454494

>>454493
>Yeah but most people use their homes to live in, and that makes it personal property.
If you can make money owning property than it's private, even if you happen to be living in it.
>I'm just trying to have correct theory, what has changed since Marx's time that we should no longer focus on productive forces ?
Marx expected crtique of his theroies, you can't seriously believe one man created an all encompassing theory of capitalism, even Marx didn't believe that, and lots has changed since the 1800's.
>>

 No.454495

>>454491
>The internet before smart phones was much more superior though, imo. It was also much more free.
That is true, but in order to get the full freedom like the ability to host a website on your home computer, you needed a symmetric dsl connection with a static IP address. Depending where you lived this was something you could get, but in many places most people were priced out. The early internet was glorious, for the people that could get it.
Smartphones and data plans are still expensive, and in many places with low incomes like India, people have gimped data plans where they don't get internet they just get Facebook and a bunch of other platforms. That's not internet, internet means your computer can connect to every IP address on the global network and can use every compatible protocol. I would say that Internet hasn't fully arrived on smartphones.

>>454494
>If you can make money owning property than it's private, even if you happen to be living in it.
Grandma renting out a room doesn't make it private property. If Grandma lives in her house it's remains personal property. Personal property has to be prioritized, because if socialism gets established we can't throw people out of their homes, because they had side hustle in there.
>Marx expected crtique of his theroies, you can't seriously believe one man created an all encompassing theory of capitalism, even Marx didn't believe that, and lots has changed since the 1800's.
But i gave you an example of why i think it still holds true.
>>

 No.454497

>>454462
Lol you bought the narratives and the ideology. You don't understand computers at all. I grew up around computer scientists and people who know their shit, and they could tell you that any machine can be controlled, and any security can be circumvented. You're always in an information war, and who has data centers and armies of agents to scour the internet? Ordinary users have jobs and cannot overcome an information war "in the field" against a determined and organized opponent. It just so happens that your typical Extremely Online person is not interesting to the feds, and the free flow of information was useful to an extent, so it was allowed. They're okay with you downloading MP3s on Napster or whatever, but when push comes to shove, if it's on the internet, it can be traced and at the least the government will know what was accessed and by whom. A whole lot of people learned that the hard way when they got busted for various internet crimes. The idea that you were going to hack the planet and the government was just too stupid to figure it out is a conceit of ideologues, not the real state of affairs.

Now the internet could be used in some ways against the regime - it's much more difficult to forcibly suppress information so that only "correct" ideas are expressed. China managed to make it happen, and the US does it now and controls most internet discussions so thoroughly it surprised even me. But the idea that the internet was "free", that the government simply couldn't control the thing DARPA created, is nonsense if you think about it for five minutes. The one thing people did have is that they held their own computers, and sometimes their own servers, and the government is not omniscient and can't hijack any computer anywhere utterly. Any request for a website, any file transferred over the internet though, the government's going to find that, and can control transmissions to a pretty large extent.

So many of these narratives about "free" internet or tech monopolists are purely focused on political narratives, literal feels > reals, when that's not really what the feds were interested in. The control of internet narratives and echo chambers is not central to the enclosure of the internet, and the use of those tactics to control discourse is a fairly new development undertaken by political campaigns. You'd have to be Extremely Online to confuse internet echo chambers for the real world and what people actually think. You do understand that for normies, they figured out a while ago that the internet was controlled to a large extent, and that they have to be careful about what they say and do online?
The internet was "enclosed" because the major servers and nerve centers were all controlled by institutions rather than the imagined smol internet user. There have been some advancements in how well governments can sort through all that information, but back in the 90s the NSA et al were very aware of how they could monitor the internet. They were only working on how to do so more efficiently. (If you ever heard of Bill Binney, he was working for the NSA to do exactly this around that time… neocons being the dumbshits that they are, they shit on him and did an incompetent job, but that is a level of incompetence it took a Bush to accomplish. I can also tell you that Bill Clinton was particularly paranoid about policing the internet as much as he could, and he wasn't as stupid as the neocons, and eventually the neocons figured out this newfangled internet thing.)

>>454463
Hardware is never free, until it's made free. There's a problem of taking the "information universe" idea literally, believing that the universe fundamentally is information and the physical world is a representation of some digital data. For a while, the software was (relatively) free, and to a large extent the software is still free if you can get around malware. Even here though, computers are devices that are built for command and control. That's a large reason why the DARPA net exists, to exercise command and control even in a total war situation.

>>454471
I was around since the old days of the 90s. I'd say it's about the same on "openness", but large institutions are far more effective at internet propaganda, and learned how to flood the internet so it seems like everything is an echo chamber. The rise of social media is really the failure of humanity to understand why social media is shit, and a sign of the masses' stupefication. It's still possible to build a library, the way the free exchange of information is intended. No force is stopping you from setting up a server and putting up a library, and in some ways it is easier to set up things like a wiki. The real source of the "enclosure" of the internet isn't the internet itself, but the way people have been educated since the 1990s. I'm old enough to remember the sharp turn in American education around 1994, and I'm not surprised that people are stupider than ever and terrified of literally everything in the world, after what I saw growing up. People could in theory make use of the internet despite the regime tightening the noose, though if dissent ever reached a critical mass, the internet could be shut down. The internet will not be shut down though, because while the internet can spread dissent, it can also be used to spread consent and compliance - the internet echo chambers are effective at molding public opinion and creating the appearance that certain regime policies are completely normal and have a mass bass, since digital shit can be reproduced very rapidly. I doubt, outside of local closures, the regime will have much reason to shut down the internet in the long term. It's protocol to shut down the internet in preparation of some military action, but all the dissent material you share online can be funneled into some agent's computer, if the agent picks up the scent that someone is a dissenter. It's like the palantir, you don't know who else could be watching and by getting in a dissenter echo chamber, you're inviting the feds for absolutely free. But regime-compliant internet propaganda and raising support for the regime through online, that's so valuable that it's worth the risk of dissent material being spread and not policed.
>>

 No.454498

>>454497
And if you're saying "what about the closure of 8chan!?" - that's always been something the government can do. Back in the 90s there wasn't really a concept that people had a right to internet privacy at all. It was a network, and the existing law would have concerned the seizure of hardware or wiretapping laws which basically said the government can tap whatever the fuck it wants. Lots of websites would be shut down in the 90s, and it stepped up in the 00s immediately in the name of "defeating terrorists". Extremist websites were designed to be lightweight, so if the feds shut them down they just restart with another. There's nothing preventing an extremist from doing the same thing now. What's different is that it's a really bad idea to share extremist info on the internet because, like I said, it's inviting the invisible fed to say "I'm a potential trouble source." So aside from CIA/FBI cut-outs designed to entrap people, extremists don't bother. The extremists of the 90s tended to be fascists, and the government was soft-supporting the fascist push during the 90s so that they could normalize it.
>>

 No.454499

>>454497
Wow yes you grew up around computer scientists hu? Wow
>>

 No.454500

>>454495
>Grandma renting out a room doesn't make it private property.
YES IT DOES
The absolute fucking state of western leftists.
>>

 No.454503

File: 1645644647347.jpg ( 103.92 KB , 534x606 , REBubble-szpcqk.jpg )

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 No.454506

>>454495
>That is true, but in order to get the full freedom like the ability to host a website on your home computer,
It was far more difficult to locally host your own website then than now.
You could get Windows Server 2003 with IIS but that license cost $$$ or you setup an Apache server on linux which was hard as balls as there wasn't good documentation or YouTube back then.
>>

 No.454507

>>454504
Uh yes the fuck you can. It's tedious as hell but you can do it. Putty is on the fucking app store.
>>

 No.468149

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>>

 No.468151

>>454478
>Are you retarded, the pre smart phone internet was a middle class country club. It was closed off to the poor, that's what we've been arguing about.
kek, Imagine believing this

the sheer copes phonecucks invent to convince themselves they are not a segregated cattle

>>454471
>No one said the internet was free but it was more open than it is today by a long shot. To bad you zoomers missed it cause it was pretty neat.
Amen brother. When "browsing" actually meant something.

Barely seen a captcha before phonepocalypse. Corporations fucked everything up, from web design to data silos

Present day "Internet"? more like Botnet lol
>>

 No.478286

>>468151
t. nostagiic copium

>>454454
this may be the cold hard truth that most millennial nostagiafags need to hear.

The Internet existed as early as the 1940s. It became civilianised in 1983.
>>454459
this. The early Internet wasnt really as free and unique as millennials make it out to be.

The "organic era" they boast about was just goofing around on flash animation sites in 2004.

early civilian Internet was no different from early TV or radio.

It was novelty. It was subjected to regulations.
>>

 No.478291

>>478286
The internet has become a lot less free, why would you try to deny this ?

When people made a webpage in the 90s and 2000s , there was no editorial censorship like on TV or radio, people could more or less put what ever they wanted online. The only radio stations that were free were so called "pirate-stations" and that still exists today. TV was never free, it was way to capital intensive for that.

Obviously it wasn't all roses, the internet was very slow and very expensive. A lot of functionality was missing you couldn't do things like post a video for example.
>>

 No.478311

>>478291
The money to run a website had to come from somewhere.

I remember even as far back as 2004 there were ads on webpages although nowhere like today.

Also, people could get kocked out for "the wrong ideas" but not necessarily by big corpo.
>>

 No.478313

>>454455
>Anyway, RPGs are timewaster games for shut-ins and losers. Hiroshi Yamauchi was right to call them so when berating people who didn't like the lack of RPGs on N64. They're really games for children / tweens, not grown-ass people. It's like, "yay, here's a story and a world to explore, learn to read and shit". There are better adventure games without the jank of RPG batlte mechanics.

Its funny how anything thats considered bad is automatically assumed to be for kids.

Yet, "adult-oriented" entertainment is often more sophisticated mind-numbing stupidity.

Playing casino slots is an adult activity yet its just pulling levers.
>>

 No.478314

>>454455
>Anyway, RPGs are timewaster games for shut-ins and losers. Hiroshi Yamauchi was right to call them so when berating people who didn't like the lack of RPGs on N64. They're really games for children / tweens, not grown-ass people.
"grown-ass people" are fucking SLAVES, retard.

Imagine not being a fucking shut-in if you get the opportunity.

I want other people to be at the distance of an internet connection - that's the only way they can be tolerable.
>>

 No.478315

>>478314
Iromy is, adults waste their free rime on TV.

Yet they still berate kids for playing vieo games.

Also, kids are slaves too.
>>

 No.478352

>>478311
>munee kums frum sumware
das rite butt runnin a website's mightee cheap 4 most normhoes at small skalz.
>>

 No.478356

>>478352
Opsec 100
>>

 No.478359

>>478358
don't do identity-politics baiting

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