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File: 1677693265664.jpg ( 60.34 KB , 629x544 , kimjonguninator.jpg )

 No.466481[Last 50 Posts]

It has recently come to light that fellow comrades have swallowed lies about the DPRK from the imperialist propaganda
Let this be a correction

<Founded on 9 September 1948, the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea (DPRK) is a nation governing the northern half of the Korean peninsula. It has a population of around 25M and has an estimated total GDP of $40 billion. You will have likely heard about something else it has that being their “wild & crazy” leader named Kim Jong-Un. But just who is Kim Jong-Un and why has the Kim family stayed in power since the DPRK’s founding?

<To begin we must first look at the definition of a monarchy: “A monarchy is a form of government in which a person, the monarch, is head of state for life or until abdication. The political legitimacy and authority of the monarch may vary from restricted and largely symbolic (constitutional monarchy), to fully autocratic (absolute monarchy), and can expand across the domains of the executive, legislative, and judicial.”
The Korean Peninsula

<Breaking this down we will start with the term of a monarch. A life of power is not something that has ever been afforded to any leaders of the DPRK. The supreme leader of the DPRK, according to their constitution, is the Chairman of the State Affairs Commission, which is held currently by Kim Jong-Un. The Chairman is elected to a term the same as that of the Supreme People’s Assembly (SPA) which, according to their constitution, is five years. Therefore, straight away this debunks the claim of a monarchical regime within the DPRK, because a monarchy cannot exist with the institution of the SPA having control over the electoral process of choosing a Chairman. However, let us dig a little deeper just to be sure.

<The SPA is the primary state organ, which is directly elected by the DPRK’s populace. There are currently three different Parties represented within the SPA, and one organisation. During an election to the SPA: “A candidate is decided in a mass meeting led by the Democratic Front for the Reunification of the Fatherland, which also organises the political parties in the DPRK. Citizens run under these parties, or they can run as independents. They are chosen by the people, not by the ‘Party’.” This means that after these mass meetings, the candidate to be put on the ballot for each constituency is chosen, and that is why only one name per constituency appears because they have already been chosen within their constituency. The elections afterwards act to double-check the people’s choice to see if the mass meetings are corrupted or incorrect, which could explain why the elections have such high approval ratings by their citizens. This also shows that manipulation by the state about the people voting yes to a candidate out of fear is incorrect, and the high yes/no ratio is an expression of the truly democratic mass meetings.

<Supreme People’s Assembly

<However, the SPA is only the legislative body of the state, and with this title, Kim Jong-Un simply cannot be defined as a monarch. So now we must move to the work of the Cabinet, which is the administrative and executive body of the DPRK, and on which Kim Jong-Un does not hold a position. For the record, if he did hold a position on this, it is an office that has a term length the same as that of the SPA. The Cabinet is also fully accountable to the democratically and directly elected SPA.

<The judiciary, on the other hand, is in the hands of the Public Prosecutor’s Office and the Court, which again Kim Jong-Un has no role in, and is chosen by, and accountable to, the democratically elected representatives on the SPA. It is untrue to claim these elections are immune to corruption, but as we can see the people have dominant control over all aspects of governance, which means that the ability to corrupt the system is greatly lessened.

<Looking at the other titles held by Kim Jong-Un, we see that he is Chairman of the Workers Party of Korea (WPK) and Supreme Commander of the DPRK Armed Forces (Marshal rank). The WPK is the largest of the ruling parties in the DPRK and enjoys mass support and a majority in the SPA. This affords Kim Jong-Un mass sway over the policy of the WPK, and therefore the nation as a whole. However, this sway works both ways and the final decision comes down to the people on who to elect to the WPK, and Kim Jong-Un himself. This is not much different to some of the more liberal democracies in Western Europe, where the leader of a party holds the most sway, and therefore the leader of the majority party is the most influential.

<Moving on to the military, of which Kim Jong-Un is the Supreme Commander of the DPRK Armed Forces. This role came with his position as Chairman of the WPK. This gives him responsibilities that are no different from any other head of state, indeed it could be argued that he is less powerful than some, as he is not the face of the government (that is the role of the Premier, at the time of writing this role belongs to Kim Tok-hun).

The definition of a monarchy continues; “The succession of monarchs is in most cases hereditary, often building dynastic periods.” so to explain this in the context of the DPRK we must look at its past leaders.
Kim Il-Sung

<Kim Il-Sung was the first Head of State of the DPRK and its founding father. He occupied the positions of President of the Republic, Premier of the Republic, Secretary-General of the WPK and Supreme Commander of the People’s Army of Korea (generalissimo rank). As we can see, Kim Il-Sung had much more power than Kim Jong-Un, and therefore direct of the same role in government (monarch) does not exist in the DPRK. We have already established the of power from the heavily detailed Constitution.

<Kim Il-Sung had the position of President of the Republic, which was more of a ceremonial role, that was abolished after his death and given to him ‘eternally’ and symbolically. However, he was the face of the government in being Premier, which was neither passed down to Kim Jong-Il nor Kim Jong-Un after him. The other positions have been covered in the context of Kim Jong-Un.

<The next Head of State was Kim Jong-Il, and he held the positions of Chairman of the DPRK National Defence Committee, General Secretary of the WPK and Supreme Commander of the Korean People’s Army (rank of Generalissimo). This shows that he had noticeably less power than his predecessor, and therefore that power is not automatically to a clear cut successor and is instead dispersed among multiple people after the death of each leader so far.

<But there is one clear pattern – the leaders are from the same direct bloodline. Now explaining this is where nuance and context are vital and, uncoincidentally, where Western media often abandons all such nuance and context. The Juche Idea created by Kim Il-Sung as the ideology of the WPK, and later DPRK, says that “man is master of the revolution”, however, only with proper leadership can the creative potential of the masses be directed properly towards the revolutionary goal.

<For more context on the history of the Kim family, Kim Sung-Joo, later named Kim Il-Sung, was a revolutionary and a national hero, who led the Korean people against the Japanese and American imperialists and won himself masses of support from the entirety of the Korean people. He guided the ship of state, at the will of the people, until he died in 1994.

<He had a son named Kim Jong-Il who had, for many years prior, been embarking on a political career in his own right and had won positions across government for his dedication and impressive competence for leadership. He only came to power four years after the death of his father, who he never publicly referred to as such and always called him “leader”. On top of all this Kim Jong-Il came to power in a time of great crisis in the DPRK as the socialist camp had collapsed and those few who remained were scrambling to survive. Furthermore, the North Koreans found themselves under a new economic offensive by the American imperialists in terms of new sanctions. This would have led people to observe the young Kim in the context of both his impressive credentials and in light of him being the son of the great leader as being the natural candidate to fend off this new assault. This is natural as in all democracies to people look to who they think of as the best leader and is irrespective of the parental connection between the two. It would be a lie however to deny any correlation.

<Finally comes Kim Jong-Un who built himself an impressive portfolio of roles and like Kim Jong-Il (his father) he did not come to power immediately after his death. This was because their constitution does not allow for a monarchy, and instead, it places power in the hands of the Korean people to decide. After all of this, I would argue that it is clear that the DPRK is not a monarchy and only a dictatorship in one sense – it is a Dictatorship of the Proletariat. While criticism can, and should, still be made to developing Socialist countries, it is the nature and character of criticism that is more often the problem. If it is a regurgitation of a supposed “fact”, allegation, or rumour, with no independent investigation made, it is more often than not blind belief in what capitalist media sources are proclaiming. The dehumanisation of those in the East – to view them as something of an “other” and not equal to us in the West is a common trope in the media. But no more is it applied as blatantly as with its view of the DPRK as a “rogue state” with its “tyrannical” and “warmongering” leader.

<We, as Communists, must do all we can to combat this misinformation campaign by the West to show the truth of socialist democracy, not only in the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea, but in all governments around the world wherever the red flag flies high.

Source
https://challenge-magazine.org/2022/02/03/is-north-korea-a-monarchy/
>>

 No.466489

File: 1677696291518.jpg ( 81.97 KB , 1280x720 , Oh_youre_a_monarchist_you_….jpg )

>>466481
>fellow comrades
youre not my comrade bitch

>A life of power is not something that has ever been afforded to any leaders of the DPRK.
False. It de facto has been a position for life.

>according to their constitution
when supposed """marxists""" start pear clutching about what is written, instead of what is done lol

>The Chairman is elected to a term the same as that of the Supreme People’s Assembly (SPA) which, according to their constitution, is five years.
All Kims got "elected" every time for the past… what 70 years?

>Therefore, straight away this debunks the claim of a monarchical regime within the DPRK, because a monarchy cannot exist with the institution of the SPA having control over the electoral process of choosing a Chairman.
SPA has no fucking control, it's a rubber stump organ. All I need to do is to look at the Soviet Union, and that it is NEVER exercised its supposed "rights" against the party decisions.

I can't be bothered to read the rest of this mltard drivel. It's like arguing with a wall. Kims literally fucking got deified for all intends and purposes with their own version of the cult of the "emperors", and this uygha here is pearl clutching lol.

I'm just glad that ML retardation degenerated into its logical conclusion - a monarchy - for all people to see.
>>

 No.466490

File: 1677699722735.jpg ( 74.13 KB , 550x413 , mecha-un.jpg )

>>466489
The dprk doesn't have the institutions of a monarchy, not even close.
All you have is that the most prominent position of the government has been held by members of the same family. Mind you that none of the Kims actually had the exact same roles as their predecessors.

The reason why this succession happens is because the Kim-family has revolutionary fame, and they have good political connections. It is not a monarchical institution that perpetuates this. If the Kim-family fades out, there's never going to be any of this again, because nobody else has revolutionary fame. There's just going to be heads of state with various sur-names.

The rest of the government doesn't have hereditary stuff going on, unlike monarchies where not just the King is chosen by heredity but pretty much all the other positions that hold political power.

It's not reasonable to compare this with a monarchy.
>>

 No.466492

>>466490
>It's not a monarchy if there is no hereditary aristocracy accompanying it
we're reaching cope levels that shouldn't even be possible

Again, all three Kims were the heads of the ruling ML party. That's all I need to know, it doesn't matter that they renamed the position of the head. It doesn't matter what happens in the legal documents, ie superstructure. What matters is what happens de facto.
>>

 No.466494


Again, to reiterate basic marxist point to all retards - IF THE LEGAL STRUCTURE DOESN'T CORRESPOND TO THE OBSERVED STRUCTURE IN REALITY, OBSERVED STRUCTURE TAKES PRIORITY AND LEGAL STRUCTURE CAN BE DISCARDED.

Example for mltards: Sparta had an assemply called apella, and "on paper" (the Great Rhetra) it was the final instance, that ratified shit an all. In all its known history apella has NEVER acted against gerousia.

I guess we must now proclaim Sparta as a democracy lol, because it says so in the Great Rhetra after all! That's how retarded you are!
>>

 No.466495

I think we can all agree that it sure as fuck isn't a "democracy" in any event, in spite of the claimed aspiration in its namesake.
>>

 No.466497

>>466492
>all three Kims were the heads of the ruling
That's a single data point, nothing else about the dprk suggests a monarchy.
>>

 No.466499

>>466497
>That's a single data point
That's the most important data point in ML-type states.
All you need to do to understand the political power of the head of the party in ML-type states is to look at the Gorbachev. No absolute monarch could ever have hoped to wield such powers over the society lol.
>>

 No.466500

>>466495
>I think we can all agree that it sure as fuck isn't a "democracy" in any event, in spite of the claimed aspiration in its namesake.
I'm not sure from what angle you are coming from
Are you that type of liberal that currently thinks that sending more weapons into warzones means more democracy.
Or
Are you doing a nuanced criticism that ML-type leadership-democracy lack mass participation on higher order political organization.
>>

 No.466501

>>466499
The General Secretary position in the Soviet Union was less powerful than most heads of states in capitalist bourgeois democracies.

>No absolute monarch could ever have hoped to wield such powers over the society lol.
But we only remember the monarchs from the time, when they were already being out-competed by the bourgeoisie and were little more than a vestige of a bygone era.
>>

 No.466502

>>466500
Democracy is government by random lot with direct participation in major decision making. You can bend over backwards to defend any manner of hierarchy in its government institutions if you please, you won't be arguing with a straight face that it has democracy.
>>

 No.466503

>>466501
>The General Secretary position in the Soviet Union was less powerful than most heads of states in capitalist bourgeois democracies.
I don't see presidents in liberal democracies causing the complete collapse of the whole state lol.

Again
your words < reality
>>

 No.466505

>>466490
>The dprk doesn't have the institutions of a monarchy, not even close.
>All you have is that the most prominent position of the government has been held by members of the same family.
Why are online MLs so rock fuck stupid.
>>

 No.466506

>>466500
>Are you that type of liberal that currently thinks that sending more weapons into warzones means more democracy.
Kek, tankies are so mask off they doggedly defend Putin's imperialist adventure.
>>

 No.466511

File: 1677723041628.jpg ( 17.52 KB , 480x480 , Shikelgruber.jpg )

>>466503
*blocks your path*
>>

 No.466527

>>466494
>muh feelings

cope
>>

 No.466528

>>466503
>I don't see presidents in liberal democracies causing the complete collapse of the whole state lol.

thats because they're run by cia, ahmed
>>

 No.466535

>>466502
>Democracy is government by random lot with direct participation in major decision making.
Fundamentally I agree with that.

>You can bend over backwards to defend any manner of hierarchy in its government institutions if you please, you won't be arguing with a straight face that it has democracy.

The neocons are, with a straight face, arguing that their warmongering is democracy. And since, at present they are the ones defining the social norms, and that's the bar they have set for democracy. Then the DPRK isn't just a democracy it's a shining beacon of democracy.
>>

 No.466536

File: 1677761997416.png ( 67.52 KB , 649x972 , no mouth must screem.png )

>>466505
<I have no arguments but i must make sectarian screeches
>>

 No.466545

>>466535
Okay but, just like any other liberal, neocons are operating off of a definition of democracy that's 200 years removed from an Orwellian word inversion and describes the complete opposite of its original definition. I don't care what they think. The permanent leaders and ossified bureaucracy that characterizes DPRK aren't any more democratic than the oligarchic elections and deep state bureaucrats of Western republics. Whether oligarchy, dictatorship, or monarchy, none of these are the form of government that communists should be aspiring towards.
>>

 No.466565

>>466545
this is flawed as the basis of the DPRK is as a worker's state. The people who inhabit offices in the DPRK government are all regular people. In the DPRK even a street sweeper can enter office. What is there to speak of in western democracies with absurd requirements to finance a campaign? The head of state remains in one family but you are losing the forest for the trees if you think revisionist workers republics like Cuba Laos and the DPRK are at all comparable to western democracy.
>>

 No.466567

>>466565
>even a street sweeper can enter office
Through sortition, I take it? Or through the oligarchic institution of elections? It's one thing to claim anyone can enter office–the same claim can be made about elections in Western countries–it's another thing to actually observe it in practice. You are losing the forest for the tree if you think a different mode of production magically makes elections democratic.
>>

 No.466569

>>466536
Cope niqqqqqqqqqaaaaa
>>

 No.466570

>>466569
Cope with you not having an argument?
>>

 No.466571

>>466570
I do, and all you can do is ignore them to
COOOOOOOOOPE
>>

 No.466590

>>466567
>you're lost for thinking that a different mode of production based on the worker's use of state power to direct the forces of production if magically democratic
maybe you're using the cock guzzling fag definition where more gays = more democracy, but in the real world
workers in power = based
sortitive democracy hinges on the conditions being ripe and surrounded by a sea of enemies with little friendly nations to trade with ain't it.
>>

 No.466591

>>466590
Guess we'll literally never have democracy then.
>>

 No.466592

File: 1677817806246.png ( 464.82 KB , 866x488 , 1677817786854.png )

>>466569
>>466571
FUCKING MLS ARE TAKING MY SOY
>>

 No.466593

>>466591
eat your fucking broccoli before you get dessert. socialism in one country must defend itself from all aggressors and in the beginning it will take the form of a war economy
>>

 No.466594

>>466593
And if my broccoli has a class interest in undermining my dessert?
>>

 No.466595

>>466592
>Implying posturing tough guy MLs aren't the most soy of all.
>>

 No.466596

File: 1677824519964.jpg ( 218.45 KB , 1280x960 , Liberal Gigachad steamroll….jpg )

>>466595
damn another victory for nafo. we can't let reddit get away with it bros
>>

 No.466597

>>466594
you're dad was a kid too trust me this whole bedtime veggies homework shtick seems bad now but you live in Detroit and gangsters are trying to mug you. You need to be educated before being given complex responsibility
>>

 No.466598

File: 1677825130274.jpg ( 56.45 KB , 1200x675 , maxres2.jpg )

>>466596
>Implying there's no fat cringe ML's.
>>

 No.466599

>>466598
This niqqa is a self admitted incel kek
>>

 No.466600

File: 1677825448365.mp4 ( Spoiler Image, 2.44 MB , 352x640 , 1677825432610.mp4 )

>>466598
You know it sister! SLAY
>>

 No.466602

>>466599
I mean, it's pretty obvious just by looking at and listening to the guy.
>>

 No.466603

>>466600
What gender is that?
>>

 No.466622

File: 1677852339069.jpeg ( 23.9 KB , 474x461 , th-3892948282.jpeg )

>>466590
>sortitive democracy hinges on the conditions being ripe and surrounded by a sea of enemies with little friendly nations to trade with ain't it.
well, it can't be much worse than mltard retardation that has failed time and time again

after all, what's the worst scenario that can happen? the complete collapse?
>>

 No.466623

>>466590
>mode of production based on the worker's use of state power to direct the forces of production if magically democratic
workers need a political mechanism to "democratically direct the forces of production" as you say

please point me to such a mechanism in mltard states
>>

 No.466624

File: 1677853079424.jpeg ( 28.09 KB , 474x340 , th-4099839175.jpeg )

>>466622
>the complete collapse?
or maybe capitalist restoration under the watchful eye of the vanguard? nah, that too can't be it..

damn, can't think of anything going worse than in mltardia!
>>

 No.466755

If "same family being the leader" is what makes a republic into a monarchy, then Cuba until 2019 was also a monarchy.
>>

 No.466764

>>466755
imperial rome was functionally a monarchy too
>>

 No.466771

>>466565
The DPRK certainly does not have a pay-wall for entering the political process that many bourgeois democracies tend to have.

I think Cockshott coined the term leadership-democracy to describe ML governance, that can have certain democratic deficiencies, if the communist parties are not pushing hard to make their members go for something like massline.

The DPRK is also in some kind of militaristic siege defense mode because they technically are still at war with the US since there never was a formal peace or a normalization of international relations. The question that should be asked what would their system look like when they aren't cornered.

>>466567
>the oligarchic institution of elections?
Most electoral processes do tend towards oligarchic outcomes, however that is not the necessary outcome. Cuban elections for example don't have any oligarchic barriers to entry.

>>466590
>Sortitive democracy hinges on the conditions being ripe and surrounded by a sea of enemies with little friendly nations to trade with ain't it.

It is a very legitimate concern to ask how resilient a political system is.
I'm not convinced that Sortition is really as weak as you consider it.
It's basing it self on statistical effects that are very hard to overcome.

The neo-liberal political game of inserting power-brokers into the political system to sell out public interests, that's not going to work. Statistical representative sampling works extremely reliable. It's been used for a very long time and many applications and all the methods of introducing bias have been beaten out of it.

If the neo-liberals get pwnd by a new system that negates their old tricks, they probably aren't going to give up, they'll look for ways to adapt. I think that proponents of democracy by lot do have to answer the question what the other potential attack-vectors can be and how those can be defended.
>>

 No.467075

hereditary high positions are the correct marxist stance. prove me wrong. actually don't, save your efforts because you can't.
>>

 No.467077

>>466771
Nqqers who rarely leave the couch pretending to be experts on the dprk
>>

 No.467081

File: 1678696909970.jpg ( 75.7 KB , 640x533 , turbocouch.jpg )

>>467077
>not countering any claims
>>

 No.467083

>>467081
You're right. I'm challenging the very premise that you're qualified to offer an opinion on the matter.
>>

 No.467084

File: 1678702183824.png ( 87.68 KB , 807x354 , adhom.png )

>>467083
>I'm challenging
not without arguments.

You are just working your way up to an ad-hominem fallacy.
>>

 No.467086

>>467075
hello theorylet

hereditary positions in the social division of labor were a direct precursor to the emergence of private property

hereditary entrenchment also presents barriers to social mobility which is a death warrant to any society in the long run

It looks like even Stalin appreciated the importance of social mobility, what with him objectively ensuring it by periodically physically removing entrenched elements excluding himself of course from this mortal realm. It looks like he was literally planning to off the whole politburo right before his death, right after he already offed the whole Leningrad section together with the Gosplan head. Crude means but they did the job.

That's the main difference between Stalin and various Uns, Brezhnevs, Castros and other limpdicks - the difference between social dynamism and ossified rigidity.
>>

 No.467090

>>467086
>hereditary positions in the social division of labor were a direct precursor to the emergence of private property
This is basically what Engels writes in
<The Origin of the Family, Private Property and the State
It's still true to an extend
But if you read newer theory that is based on more sophisticated recent anthropology.
Like Paul Cockshott's
<How the world works, the story of human labor from prehistory to modern day
You get the impression that it's not a simple linear causal relation. Hereditary positions don't always precede property relations.

I'm not sure to what extend you really can claim that the DPRK has hereditary political leadership, because there aren't any indications that the political system in the dprk is incapable of delegating political leadership to somebody else, not part of the Kim family. So far it appears that it just hasn't done so.

I think you are correct to conclude that political power in the dprk is entrenched, however not to the extend that you could call it monarchical. How do you know about the state social mobility in the DPRK ?

And there is of course the elephant in the Room that the dprk hasn't really expanded the role of private property. There is the Rason special economic zone, that they created in 1990 as a concession for Chinese economic cooperation. That does have a little bit of private property, but that clearly is the result of international real-politics, not internal political forms. It's largely the same system as it always was, it could be labeled as a soviet derivative political structure.

>Castro
>limpdick
driving out the Batista regime
weathering decades of US embargo
I'm going to say that qualifies for big dick energy.

>It looks like even Stalin appreciated the importance of social mobility, what with him objectively ensuring it by periodically physically removing entrenched elements from this mortal realm.
I think that what Stalin did was correct, considering that the Soviet union was engaged in a total-war death-match against Fascism, but for less extreme times you need gentler method's. It's probably possible to achieve a similar result by rotating personnel and keeping a high proletarian quota.

I tried searching for details about the Soviet proletarian quota but search engines can't find shit about it. I think they lowered the proletarian quota after Stalin but I'm not sure if i remember that correctly.
>>

 No.467091

>>467090
>there aren't any indications that the political system in the dprk is incapable of delegating political leadership to somebody else, not part of the Kim family. So far it appears that it just hasn't done so.
If this is in any way true, then it's just a different kind of corruption: the ruling class of DPRK is using a hereditary figurehead to lend legitimacy to their own privilege.
>>

 No.467092

>>467084
If you have the chance, take a break from reddit to read about a Marxist understanding of where knowledge comes from
https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/selected-works/volume-1/mswv1_16.htm
>>

 No.467094

>>467084
>why don't you argue with me about something (that's fairly unimportant) that I have no practical knowledge about while I continue to bullshit expertise?!
Comrade Dunning Kruger has logged on
>>

 No.467095

>>467091
>the dprk has a lot of corruption.
How do you know ?
They managed to build an atomic weapons program. North Korea is a tiny country with a tiny economy that also is under an economic blockade. They must have considerable economic efficiency to realize such a big project, they couldn't have squandered much surplus on bribery.

Listen there is so much bullshit being said about the Dprk because of a massive propaganda astroturfing campaign, that you can't reasonably believe negative assertions about them unless they can be proven. You need to apply counter-heuristics to negate propaganda bias.

>>467094
>appeal to authority fallacy
just argue your position, nothing else will do.
>>

 No.467097

>>467094
>what you are saying is wrong
>but i won't offer a rebuttal
pointless
>>

 No.467098

>>467095
>Countries that build nukes can't be corrupt
Lol - seriously
>Muh, argue your position
This belief that truth is something innate and divorced from experience/practice is why you have such a ghey reddit tier character and lame loser life. It's not hard to Google 'north Korea markets' and find relevant info the contradicts your counterfactual understanding. But that is beyond the point. You simply are not qualified on this topic. Within the context of a Communist Party, you would have no right to speak about it (inb4 liberal screeching). And while leftychan isn't a CP, I'm not bound by some requirement to debate every halfwit with a shit life, little practical experience outside of being a NEET/wagie, and dunning kruger syndrome.
>Why no, I've never been within 1000km of the DPRK nor ever been in the same room with someone who was from there. Please take my view on this topic, which I'm adamant to debate about, seriously.
Ya, no thanks.
>>

 No.467099

>>467095
i quoted the wrong post
my apologies to >>467094

>>467092
>appeal to authority fallacy
just argue your position, nothing else will do.
>>

 No.467100

>appeal to authority fallacy
>just argue your position, nothing else will do
I can guarantee this person honestly believes they aren't just a radlib
>>

 No.467102

>>467098
Large countries like the US can manage corruption and a nuclear weapons program simultaneously. But for North Korea, the nuclear weapons program probably consumed around 40% of the annual budget during the peak development phase, That isn't doable for inefficient corruption riddled institutions.

You can't substitute character-assassinations for actual arguments. It just looks like you are dodging the topic. If you know so much more about North Korea then the rest of us, why not share that knowledge instead ?
>>

 No.467103

>>467100
Com'on don't be nasty.
Besides radlibs can't argue for shit, if they knew what logical fallacies were, they'd be 90% less cringe.
>>

 No.467105

>>467102
>Large countries like the US can manage corruption and a nuclear weapons program simultaneously. But for North Korea, the nuclear weapons program probably consumed around 40% of the annual budget during the peak development phase, That isn't doable for inefficient corruption riddled institutions.
I literally laughed reading this
You're a expert at state budgets with a focus in military research expenditures now, and there's no way a country with a series of 3 hereditary rulers is corrupt🤡
>You can't substitute character-assassinations for actual arguments
I certainly can. As I've said a million times, you have no qualifications to be offering an opinion on Korea. You bullshit yourself into thinking youre smart, so you take offense at me pointing out that you're not lol
>It just looks like you are dodging the topic. If you know so much more about North Korea then the rest of us, why not share that knowledge instead ?
<Stop being a moralizing, womanly whiney woe is me faggot. realize that everything is more complex than you realize. Be creative. The truth of the DPRK is this: it's highly corrupt but so is everything that exists- because reality doesn't conform to moral ideals, especially liberal pomo bullshit ones pressed into midwit black and white thinking. But if you need something definitive and relevant, the DPRK is in some ways better and in some ways worse than Amerikwa - probably these days more the former than latter.
>>

 No.467106

>>467090
>Hereditary positions don't always precede property relations.
As far as I'm aware hereditary aristocracy came out of the primitive societies pretty much everywhere across the board and was tied to the land ownership.

>I'm not sure to what extend you really can claim that the DPRK has hereditary political leadership, because there aren't any indications that the political system in the dprk is incapable of delegating political leadership to somebody else, not part of the Kim family. So far it appears that it just hasn't done so.
My conclusions are from surface observations and comparisons with the Soviet Union.
I think the system is incapable of delegating to anybody outside of the Kim family because the Kim family is a core of the entire structure giving it stability. Looking at the Soviet experience we can see that the political structure is very unstable and prone to crises of reproduction. It is my guess that monarchic element gives this structure some stability, but in my humble opinion this is just delaying the inevitable political crisis.

>I think you are correct to conclude that political power in the dprk is entrenched, however not to the extend that you could call it monarchical. How do you know about the state social mobility in the DPRK?
I interpolate from the Soviet experience.
Stalin era Soviet Union had remarkable social mobility due to rapid changes in the structure of the economy, education system and frequent mass purges.
The trend after Stalin was on declining social mobility due to cronyism and in-group intermarriage tendencies. Tho there were also some counter tendencies present from the Stalin times such as widespread and encouraged training in absentia at the university and various class quotas.
I assume in DPRK this process has gone much farther than in the Soviet Union due to there being no Stalin and no proletarian revolutionary impulse in its history.
Acceptance of monarchical elements is just one of the biggest signs of this. Soviet society wouldn't have accepted such elements precisely because of its historical inertia.
DPRK on the other hand was born out of the national liberation movement, not a social revolutionary movement.

>And there is of course the elephant in the Room that the dprk hasn't really expanded the role of private property.
You would need data on the black markets to say anything about this. The Soviet progressing social ossification was characterized by an increasing intermingling of managerial and political entrenched groups with black market organized groups.

>I think that what Stalin did was correct, considering that the Soviet union was engaged in a total-war death-match against Fascism
Nothing to do with death matches, Stalin just didn't think twice about using radical measures. He even tried to lay a theoretical foundation for recurring purges with a postulate about the exacerbation of the class struggle with further advancement towards communism.

>but for less extreme times you need gentler method's
I agree, but I don't think this was Stalin's opinion on the matter at all seeing how he was starting to spin the flywheel of repressions again at "less extreme times". I think his opinions was that there must be recurring "bloodletting" to retain the revolutionary momentum.

>It's probably possible to achieve a similar result by rotating personnel and keeping a high proletarian quota.
problem is that hereditary entrenchment is in direct opposition to rotation
and I don't think this is a kind of conflict that can be solved by talking it out, and I don't think that Stalin thought it either, which is why he preferred going straight to the terror and physical removal part

>I think they lowered the proletarian quota after Stalin but I'm not sure if i remember that correctly.
Actually, I think they increased quota in Brezhnev times seeing as there was a tendency of decreasing ordinary workers membership.
>>

 No.467107

>>467106
*extrapolate
>>

 No.467108

>>467105
>>467106
Well - this debate seems rather over.
But one question remains. How based is the DPRK either because of or despite all that?

>Inb4 muhstability
I actually agree
>>

 No.467110

>>467104
You may have a point that the triple continuity of leadership coming from the same family raises the question about corruption, but it doesn't prove it.
Given that the current ruling narrative is characterize by extreme anti-dprk-bias, you have to prove negative assertions.
You are welcome to refute the assertion that North Korea has to be efficient to be able to make nukes happen, but so far you seem to have conceded that point.

>I've said a million times
It doesn't matter how many times you repeat an insult, it doesn't make it an argument.
Give up, i won't take the bait, i won't join you in the mud-pit of words, it's just too boring.
>>

 No.467114

>>467106
>As far as I'm aware hereditary aristocracy came out of the primitive societies pretty much everywhere across the board and was tied to the land ownership.
Primitive-societies turned into clan-societies, there were many different types, not all off them were agrarian, there also were trading clans, warrior/marauder-clans, herding clans and so on. For a very long time agrarian clan-society could be very egalitarian, that only changed when territorial contests became frequent. Most theory that i have read attributes this to clans with social stratification being able to have dedicated warriors that were better at conquering.
I'm not sure if miss-interpret your words but landed aristocracy grew out of slave-society which came after clan society. Basically that's the dawn of feudalism.

>I think the system is incapable of delegating to anybody outside of the Kim family because the Kim family is a core of the entire structure giving it stability.
Nope speculation. Their system is probably also stable without the Kim family. I don't buy this because this reeks of "special people that have a unique ability to rule". It seems to me that the Kim's were very capable politicians, but not irreplaceable politicians. It appears to me that you are sneaking-in monarchical believes as a premise. Monarchs believed they were indispensable, but that was never true.

>Looking at the Soviet experience we can see that the political structure is very unstable and prone to crises of reproduction.
Was it really unstable ?
Considering what epic historic onslaught the Soviet Union could withstand without buckling, i hesitate a guess that you can't find another country that was as robust. You could argue that it was not stable enough to achieve it's historical task of bringing about world communism, but that is entirely different from claiming that ML-state were unstable by nature. You are just making up a contrivance because you want to argue that ML-states require a monarchical element.

>I interpolate from the Soviet experience.
>DPRK on the other hand was born out of the national liberation movement, not a social revolutionary movement.
You have to make a choice, you either say that the DPRK and the Soviet Union are comparable and you can interpolate from one to the other, but then they both have a tendency to preserve a proletarian character and social mobility, or they aren't comparable. But you can't have it both ways.

>You would need data on the black markets to say anything about this. The Soviet progressing social ossification was characterized by an increasing intermingling of managerial and political entrenched groups with black market organized groups.
This is a fair point, private property relations can grow out of an informal economy. But then the question is why hasn't the black-market undermined the formal economy to the point where it can't maintain it self anymore. You are basically telling a story where the DPRK never really progressed beyond the mode of production of a monarchical feudal society, that might be in the process of being transformed into a capitalist one. Early stage capitalism is an incredibly explosive force that sweeps away feudal structures with great ease and expediency. And that process usually is anything but subtle. Where are the signs ?

<for less extreme times you need gentler method's like rotation
>I agree
>problem is direct opposition to rotation
>I don't think this is a kind of conflict that can be solved by talking it out
You are sending mixed signals.
What do you propose ?
>>

 No.467115

>>467114
The bong is loaded and comrade dunning kruger is ready to debate this very important issue among the left.
>>

 No.467120

>>466603
A slayviukrayni, can't breed with humans, only Nazis.
>>

 No.467122

>>467115
>The bong is loaded
is that a wealthy British person ?

>this very important issue among the left.
You don't get it, do you ?
That debate isn't really about North Korea, it's about ruling ideology and whether or not your accept the narrative about the "evil Norks" and by extension support the position of the imperial bourgeoisie that sees it self as having the right to "overthrow the regime"

The point of arguing that North Korea is a feudal monarchy is because Marx said it's progress when capitalists overthrow feudal systems, and that means you can Marx-wash being a imperialist-pseudo leftist.
>>

 No.467123

>>467086
>social mobility
>in socialism
in socialism there are no classes or they're are going extinct, therefore there is no reason to have social mobility, since more than mobile, society is completely fluid. but please, continue to read your "theory".
also, you include the necessity to have the state leadership subject to this rule of social mobility, this means that politics in your "socialism" is already a different class, this is means that your society is doomed before mine.
>hereditary positions in the social division of labor were a direct precursor to the emergence of private property
no proof of causation, also in completely different environments. i could also say that absolute monarchy, itself a product of private property, led to the modern de-privatized state, and I would be more correct.
>periodically physically removing entrenched elements
i wonder who's giving him this right.
>>467098
>produced no proof of corruption
>slandering comrades therefore
kys
>>

 No.467124

>>467105
>>You can't substitute character-assassinations for actual arguments
>I certainly can
lol yes we know
>>

 No.467125

>>467114
>there also were trading clans, warrior/marauder-clans
hunter-gatherers are primitive societies

>herding clans
ownership of cattle and pastures

>I'm not sure if miss-interpret your words but landed aristocracy grew out of slave-society which came after clan society. Basically that's the dawn of feudalism.
hereditary aristocracy predates feudalism, it first appeared out of the tribal system
ownership of land is perfectly compatible with slavery, also there were feudal elements all throughout slave based mode of production

>Their system is probably also stable without the Kim family.
We've already seen multiple times how "stable" is ML system without any monarchic elements.
Literally can't go twelve years without shitting the bed with some political crisis that requires army involvement.

>I don't buy this because this reeks of "special people that have a unique ability to rule". It seems to me that the Kim's were very capable politicians, but not irreplaceable politicians.
wat
Kims are indispensable not because they are some genius politicians lol
They are indispensable because they define the whole framework of political process, the rules of engagement, so to speak. Because political rules were always the weakest spot in ML states, with everyone always doing whatever the fuck they think they can get away with.
The simple fact that Kim as a general secretary is a political constant already brings some order to this disorder of political wild west. That's why I say Kim monarchy is a structurally reinforcing element.

>Was it really unstable ?
are you for real?
the eastern block had political mood swings of a young girl on her first period

>Considering what epic historic onslaught the Soviet Union could withstand without buckling, i hesitate a guess that you can't find another country that was as robust.
It withstood only because Stalin was a literal political Übermensch, not because of the ML political system.

>But you can't have it both ways.
They have the same internal social dynamic of progressive ossification. Only Korea doesn't have such historical counter tendencies as Stalin undoing any social dynamic by the means of sheer revolutionary terror.

>But then the question is why hasn't the black-market undermined the formal economy to the point where it can't maintain it self anymore.
Black market is never going to be able to undermine the planned economy to such an extent by merely existing. It undermines the political system, which in turn undermines the planned economy.

Why it haven't been able to undermine the political system yet may be related to the monarchic reinforcing element that gives the whole political system some stability.

>You are basically telling a story where the DPRK never really progressed beyond the mode of production of a monarchical feudal society
wat
monarchy doesn't equal feudalism
If it's anything like the soviet union then workers can change their workplace

>Early stage capitalism is an incredibly explosive force that sweeps away feudal structures with great ease and expediency. And that process usually is anything but subtle. Where are the signs ?
You seem to confuse monarchy as a form of government with feudalism as a mode of production.

>You are sending mixed signals.
I'm not.
The solution is short term limits and barring from occupying the same position multiple times in a lifetime.
Also public scrutiny at the end of the term.
Also no legal immunity while in the office.

What you want is the effect of the purges but channeled not through troikas but through the jury court.
>>

 No.467126

>dprk is corrupt!
<pls, show the proof
>hurr durr do you think dprk cannot be corrupt?
ahah, die.
>>

 No.467129

>>467123
>in socialism there are no classes or they're are going extinct, therefore there is no reason to have social mobility
wow, literal galaxy brain lol

in socialism you have division of labor, including divisions between managers and their subordinates

so already you can have social mobility

>society is completely fluid
only if you have high social mobility

>also, you include the necessity to have the state leadership subject to this rule of social mobility, this means that politics in your "socialism" is already a different class, this is means that your society is doomed before mine.
what the fuck are you even talking about

you think that you can manage society without political institutions?

>modern de-privatized state
wat

>i wonder who's giving him this right.
revolutionary necessity gave him this right
>>

 No.467130

>>467095
>How do you know ?
Because the same family has been head of state for three generations. You fucking idiot.
>>

 No.467151

>>467130
Comrade Dunning Kruger has done his research - mostly in the form of weed smoking and cope sophistry. Hope can you deny the karma-inducing power of his ideas?
>>

 No.467152

>>467129
Another day with comrade loser faggot doing nothing besides pretending to be an expert in things he has no clue about

It's really sad idealism.
>>

 No.467154

>>467105
>>467110
>>

 No.467155

>>467151
Name call all you want anon, it's not an argument.
>>

 No.467156

>>467155
I'm still waiting for all your ghey arguments to materialize into something beyond (reddit tier liberal) rhetoric
>>

 No.467158

>>467156
>country has audacity to call itself a "democratic" republic
>bureaucracy so ossified that the same family is head of state for three generations
If it made a claim to aspire to some other form of government it would be one thing. But to call oneself a democracy (even in the most charitable liberal definition of democracy as when you have elections) and have such an obvious dissonance, the word for that is corruption.
>>

 No.467159

File: 1678788664529.png ( 13.52 KB , 644x800 , wojak-npc-soy-boy-mouth-op….png )

>>467158
>Words on paper don't correspond to reality
>>

 No.467160

>>467158
yeah, its fucking corrupted. stay on reddit
>>

 No.467161

>>467125
I think primitive societies are the step before clan societies.
Some Herding clans did have ownership of cattle and pastures, but many were nomadic.

The landed aristocracy was the most powerful class during feudalism. They didn't have much power in tribal society, and in slave society the slavers were the most powerful. I don't know to what extend you can say that people claiming land in earlier modes of production already constituted private property, because that usually entails state enforcement

I find your claim that ML systems were unstable, unconvincing. State socialism managed to endure the most extreme situations. No Capitalist bourgeois political system has even come close to this.

>They are indispensable because they define the whole framework of political process, the rules of engagement, so to speak.
What does this even mean ? It sounds like corporate marketing speech.

>Because political rules were always the weakest spot in ML states
Previously you said the DPRK wasn't an ML state, make up your mind.

>The simple fact that Kim as a general secretary is a political constant already brings some order to this disorder of political wild west
The royalty stabilizes political systems trope ?
You sound like a monarchy apologist.

>the eastern block had bodily functions
oof
>Stalin was a literal political Übermensch
great man theory

>Black market is never going to be able to undermine the planned economy to such an extent by merely existing.
So now you admit that the DPRK is socialism and not a monarchy. Every monarchy had it's power broken by capitalist markets.

>monarchy doesn't equal feudalism
It kinda does. The so called monarchs that exist in capitalism tend to be capitalists with "traditional marketing". Even if they still have some formal political-powers, it's never more than symbolic stuff that would evaporate the moment they tried to use those in a political contest.

>You seem to confuse monarchy as a form of government with feudalism as a mode of production.
No monarchical rule is the super structure of a feudal base, which usually means an agricultural mode of production

>The solution is short term limits
Yup liberalism detected.
The liberals invented political term limits because people kept re-electing economically left-leaning governments in certain bourgeois electoral democracies. Which meant that reformers could be re-elected often enough to reform out of capitalism. And they put in term-limits to prevent that. It's very undemocratic, because it's basically overriding the democratic will of the electorate.


I think your motives might be to define the DPRK as a monarchy to comply within the ruling narrative of imperialism.
>>

 No.467162

>>467130
>>467158
>>467160

>>467126

—-
Nobody has actually substantiated the claim that North Korea has a lot of corruption.
>>

 No.467163

File: 1678789597753.jpg ( 10.37 KB , 214x317 , soy-vigilante.jpg )

>>467159
>words don't matter and language is meaningless
>>

 No.467164

>>467163
Ya. Don't you have any experience in the real world?
>>

 No.467165

>>467162
What a retard. Comrade Dunning Kruger, you need sleep. This is laughable even for you.
>>

 No.467167

File: 1678796257239.jpg ( 88.23 KB , 1200x801 , inspecting with magnifier.jpg )

>>467165
where's the evidence for corruption in the DPRK
>>

 No.467168

>>467167
Are you on indica or sativa today?
>>

 No.467173

File: 1678804512872.mp4 ( 3.21 MB , 640x360 , Devil Eyes - Jean-Paul Mar….mp4 )

>>467161
>Yup liberalism detected.
Choke on my dick pathetic theorylet twerp
I've had enough of your moronic takes

>The liberals invented political term limits
Wrong.

>Which meant that reformers could be re-elected often enough to reform out of capitalism. And they put in term-limits to prevent that.
Shit pet theory. Any reformer would be offed long before he could "reform" out of capitalism.
Also I guess Hitler doing away with term limits was the epitome of democracy now lol.

>It's very undemocratic, because it's basically overriding the democratic will of the electorate.
"democratic will of the electorate" is an oxymoron
"the electorate" by definition has no political will, it's just impotent cattle

"democratic will" is when you execute all of the archons cause you fucking feel like it

"democratic will" is when you proclaim your own Emperor, take the Eternal City by force, purge the senators, decimate the praetorian guard, and have your Emperor's last words of advice be "enrich the soldiers and despise everyone else"

"democratic will" is when you threaten to sack London if the King's head doesn't roll

limpdick bitch

>They didn't have much power in tribal society, and in slave society the slavers were the most powerful.
slaveowners also were owners of land retardoid

>I don't know to what extend you can say that people claiming land in earlier modes of production already constituted private property, because that usually entails state enforcement
state along with hereditary aristocracy emerged out of the dissolution of clan societies

>I find your claim that ML systems were unstable, unconvincing.
I don't give a fuck
you're a nobody

>State socialism managed to endure the most extreme situations.
The only thing that ML retardation has "managed to" by itself is shitting the bed like no other society before it.
Soviet Union weathered the storm on Stalin's watch.

>No Capitalist bourgeois political system has even come close to this.
illiterate historylet mouth breather

The First Republic weathered no lesser storm than the Soviet Union, and the newborn French Empire has gone on to steamrolling all of the old feudal Europe.

>What does this even mean ?
It means that the Kim is the general secretary by default.

>Previously you said the DPRK wasn't an ML state
Where?

Try rereading multiple times if your illiterate ass can't understand simple sentences.

>You sound like a monarchy apologist.
I don't give a fuck what I sound like to some nobody retard on the internet.

It's my take on it, deal with it.

>oof
it's called a metaphor..

>great man theory
nah, Soviet Union collapsed in the end after all
only without Stalin it would've collapsed much earlier

I don't care if this fact of life rattles your dogmoid sensibilities
All you need to do to understand the importance of Stalin factor is to look at his contemporaries, what someone has aptly noted as a "sea of gray"

limpdicks Molotov, Kaganovich, Voroshilov
idiot Beria
lapdog Malenkov

this is your elite vanguard, mltard
a bunch of blind kittens bumbling in the dark
this is what your political system amounts to without the Stalin factor

and your own vegetable tier mental level is just another proof of this

>So now you admit that the DPRK is socialism and not a monarchy.
Again. Retard.

Monarchy is a form of government. A superstructure.

Socialism is an economic system. A base.

Basic things, retard. BASIC.

>It kinda does.
It does not, historylet.

Google Hellenistic period.

>No monarchical rule is the super structure of a feudal base
Wrong.

>which usually means an agricultural mode of production
there is no such thing as an "agrarian mode of production" theorylet

>I think your motives might be to define the DPRK as a monarchy to comply within the ruling narrative of imperialism.
It IS a monarchy.

Reality doesn't care about your feeling, and neither do I.
>>

 No.467174

Tfw you're a midwit loser who fancies themselves as an expert on everything.

>one person comes along to point out you're a midwit loser but refuses to even engage with your horseshit college sophomore bad takes

So you scream about fallacies like some faggot who surfs reddit constantly

>another person comes along and actually points out several things you're just plain wrong about

Time to load up another bowl before doubling down on being a retarded dunning kruger faggot

<Seriously bro. This is embarrassing.
>>

 No.467176

>>467173
>All you need to do to understand the importance of Stalin factor is to look at his contemporaries
oh, and don't ever bring up such sub zero autism score "old bolsheviks" as Kamenev, Zinoviev, Bukharin, Radek, Trotsky

they were even worse, at least limpdicks were not leftoid dogmoids and enemy class collaborators
>>

 No.467204

>>466481

DPRK isn't quite a monarchy, but I think it's up-in-the-air whether or not it's socialist. The Kims are absolutely a dynasty, and their appeal is to national identity - it's been a while since I've gotten much into this stuff, but Juche seems to be a mix of modern nationalism, Maoism, and a kind of benign (?) monarchy. The legitimacy of the government seems principally maintained by national military power (which they indeed have in spades) rather than economic quality, which would sound pretty fascist save that, as far as I'm aware, they still use a (mostly) centrally planned economy.

So there are economic ideas derived from MLism, but the political and social structure of the country seems more based in a dictatorship of Korean national identity than the proletariat. It seems pretty far removed from Marxism, this dynastic leadership upheld by the military.

All this isn't a condemnation, in case someone with comprehension difficulties gets the wrong idea. NK has a right to exist, and nobody should be fucking with them.
>>

 No.467205

>>467204
Rights are fake though
>>

 No.467214

>>467205

So are borders, money, and words - even "fake," here. What's it mean? It's gibberish. Just a bunch of chicken scratch imbued with arbitrary meaning, unless there's some reason to imbue it with meaning, some usefulness.
>>

 No.467215

>>467214
And so is your manhood
>>

 No.467221

>>467205
"fake" and "abstraction" are two different things and something being an abstraction doesn't inherently make it bad or not useful.
>>

 No.467223

>>467221
Comrade dk just reupped and is ready to enlighten us
>>

 No.468678

Socialism can unironically be somewhat monarchic.

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