/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

What do you suggest they do?
They don't have much option besides just saying "that was a lie."
Electoral politics is genuinely wrecked - and I honestly recommend that you try it out if you have the time. Getting a feel for the precise ways in which it's wrecked is sort of important. In America in particular, the DNC & GOP actively make it harder to run effectively as anything else, which ends up creating a nice feedback loop for them as people, who don't understand the deliberate barriers to ballot access & press coverage, who don't understand the insane unchecked campaign finance machine, will get the impression that this is all just because of how sensible people vote.

How do you fight that alone? Even if you manage to get elected to something, how do you fight all these backstabbers in your party when they've got the media on their side? How do you fight capital from a place where capital rules?

It's a god damn shame, and I really wish it wasn't like this. Socialists used to win elections in America a long, long time ago, but it's so much harder now. And I like some of these "parliamentary" guys - I don't think they'd have slandered Corbyn so hard if they didn't see him as a threat. That was so disappointing, but what is there to do?

Well, guns, hopefully. Or organized labor, that's more useful, but guns are always ok. If you wanna run for office, go for it, I won't shit on you for it like some of these other fags. I'll even give ya advice.

>>468102
Maybe you have to control another institution before you can participate in elections.

For example if the British socdems had control over something like the military or secret services, nobody would dare backstabbing or systemic slander, because there would be consequences.

In the early 20th century organized labor had armed cadres that were strong enough to win against corporate security forces in street battles. It's just a lot less likely that an organization like that gets fucked with.

It's also a problem that many socdems are still on the wrong track, many are still trying to capture a part of the imperial super-profits for social well-fare. But the imperial system is loosing power and that seems to be irreversible. Which makes it a dead end. The material base for this kind of reformist politics now lies in working together with labor-organization in the imperialised countries. And domestic political allies for this project would be basically everybody on the anti-war-spectrum.

The problem may not be that the media is putting out an insane distortion or sometimes a total inversion of reality. In the past the press wasn't any better, if you look up old newspapers, they were just as bad. War-propaganda was even a little worse, because they could get away with more lies than they do today. I know that sounds shocking, but it didn't really harm opposition to war. Maybe there's not enough news sources that offer a different view.

Because without these shitsacks the so-called capitalist democracy loses its purpose. & the purpose of capitalist/bourgeoisie democracy is to let the exploited send signals to the masters of the system that the exploitation must be lessened or the slaves will have to wreck this system of exploitation in order to keep their lives going. idk how this is called in engrish but the most blatant example would be the hole in some boiling mechanism which lets it to drop the overloading pressure due to its working state.
& some (ackshually many) unbelievably retarded class traitors really have @ idea that the bourg voooooooooooooooting must be used by the proleslaves to win political power. Yeah, their goal is to win some bits of political power to exchange it for a temporary relieving (not even pausing!) of the practice of psychotorturing away 1/2 of human lives in exchange for meme profits.

Every shitty succdam is a total lying piece of bourg cumstain that should be shot in place for even doing this fucking work. Literally the work of Natsoys who operated the public jewish labor camps so the dam unaware kikes would not fear to travel to the other ones! Holy shit!

I come from that part of the world where believing in liberal democracy is equivalent to believing in Santa Claus.

So I can't even begin to comprehend what is there to be gained in a parliamentary system.

even if your voot would result in your preferred candidate winning, it doesn't follow that they will voot as you would prefer them to voot, and even if they voot as you would prefer, there are hundreds of others who would not voot as their electorate would prefer them to voot
and that assuming that your "representative" actually gets an opportunity to voot on the issues that actually matter to you in the first place

add to this political parties, bicameralism, deep state, the whole economic system, and the significance of your individual voot approaches a big fat 0

just math, nothing personal libshits, just adding probabilities together

Corbyn is legitimately just autistic. I have several autistic friends and they're stubborn in literally the exact same way, they just become frustrated and go into seige mentality rather than defend themselves.

Also many of these types have more loyalty to the party than to the ideology.

>>468112
>the significance of your individual voot approaches a big fat 0
tho retarded leftoids somehow managed to create a system that is even worse in this aspect than parliamentarian lol

>>468104
Corbyn should have gone on the offensive.
1: Not bent over for all the bad antisemitism shit, nobody actually believed it anyway, Corbyn literally had recordings that the events never happened, didnt release them until they were leaded after the 2019 election.
2: Purged the shit out othe Labour right and empowered the membership
3: Provided an argument for a Soft Lexit
4: Shut down smug British journalists and MPs in the exact way Lynch does.

Instead he just gets huffy and puffy and shrugs whenever questioned on anything. Corbyn is a good person, but very autistic and has absolutely zero skill in playing the political game.
Similar issues with Sanders, just to a lesser degree than Corbyn.
Both Corbyn and Sanders are legitimately too nice.
People like AOC, Rayner, Bowman, Omar, Lewis etc should just be ignored completely, left larping grifters that exist to funnel left votes to Neolib parties.

>>468117
>Similar issues with Sanders, just to a lesser degree than Corbyn.
Sanders is very good at political game actually. Considering that even today many burgers still believe that he was just too soft and not a malicious actor lol.

Dunno about Corbyn tho, there was a smear campaign against him after all. Tho his limpdick response makes me suspicious.

>>468117

I don't know, from where I'm sitting it seemed like he didn't bend over - although people did seem to believe it… but a significant part of my exposure to British "people" who believed it was over twitter, and that's not really a trustworthy metric. The public at large probably didn't believe it, but it seems like between the Labour right and the MSM pushing it, enough party members were fooled for it to be a problem within the party.
And yeah, I think Corbyn probably didn't have the capacity to pull off a party purge - basically, all of these dipshits were all agreeing to come after him with a flat-out lie, in order to counter it effectively, Corbyn would have to have already had his side lined up to push them out. They had their attack ready, they had the press ready to back them up, and Corbyn, not being a backstabbing piece of shit, was barely even ready to make the switch to stop acting as though it was good faith, let alone put up an effective offense. Without a plan for dealing with this hostility, without everybody lined up to reject the lying bastards altogether, even a "successful" purge for Corbyn would have fractured the party. I guess you can ask if that really matters… it probably doesn't, but right now it's kinda looking like Keir Starmer may be able snatch defeat from the jaws of victory anyway - whether Starmer's Labour wins or loses in the next elections, no one will be able to say that the Corbyn side wrecked the party.

God, I wanna like AOC. Well, sort of. Ok, not really. But God damn is it sad that Sanders is like the only significant progressive politician in our country. Can you imagine another independent getting elected without it being a guy with Fundie or Koch money behind them? I really fucking hate this shit, the DNC is fucking insidious.

You know what really makes me sad is Warren - I used to like her, I shit you not, I used to say she should have been the DNC candidate in 2016 instead of Clinton. Yeah, she was never perfect, but she seemed ok to me at one time! She seemed to be left of most of the party, I didn't really care about her dumb personal shit… but Jesus fucking Christ, the way she just caved to the Biden people, the way she accused Bernie of misogyny, just so she could support a senile rapist. I can't fucking believe I took her seriously.

>>468144
Lol. Baseline liberalism parading as muhleftism

>>468144
Easiest way to crush the Antisemitism bullshit was simply go on the offensive and get Palestinian members of the party to talk about the abuse they get from Zionists and their family members killed by Zionists.
It was nonsense and everyone, EVERYONE knows that Antisemitism accusations are bad faith 99.999% of the time when it comes from Israel supporters.
Corbyn constantly apologised for Antisemitism, and those apologies just let them then go "well look you admit you and the left are antisemitic", Finklestien told Corbyn to reject the proposition totally or they will come back harder and harder, but Corbyn ignored Finklestein and apologised, that was when the trap was sprung.
You cannot be on the defensive with these people, you need to put them on the back foot and it's every easy to go on the offensive against the British press accusing them of Islamophobia and Pro-Israeli/Anti-Palestinian racism.

>>468147

Yeah, how dare anyone ever be disappointed with anything. If only everyone was as aloof as possible all the time!

>>468164

I don't know, I'm not British - do you really think that strategy would have worked on the spot, with no preparation? Genuine question.
>EVERYONE knows that Antisemitism accusations are bad faith 99.999% of the time when it comes from Israel supporters.
Most people do, it doesn't mean absolutely everybody does. And if you go and admit that, it could open you up to more attacks. He wasn't in an advantageous position here - yes, he was wrongfully accused, but he was wrongfully accused very deliberately by people who had more connections than he did.
I wasn't aware he was constantly apologizing for it, though - maybe I forgot. What exactly did he say?
Finklestein's advice was obviously right… but tbqh, it still doesn't seem like there was a winning move to be made here. That would have been a better course of action, though.
>You cannot be on the defensive with these people, you need to put them on the back foot and it's every easy to go on the offensive against the British press accusing them of Islamophobia and Pro-Israeli/Anti-Palestinian racism.
Well, yeah. You can't be on the defensive - but he didn't have an offense prepared. When other people collude to stab you in the back, you can't collude with your side to get them back once the knife's already in.
And yeah - of course he could accuse the British press of Islamophobia, of course he could accuse them of being biased towards Israel… and they'd presumably just accuse him of deflecting. The amount of hysteria they whipped up over this probably wouldn't be quelled just by pointing to their hypocrisy - yes, they were hypocrites, and it's frankly bizarre to target Labour for "anti-semitism" at all when the Tories exist, but I don't think pointing this stuff out at that time would have done much to save him. I might be wrong!

Corbyn should've owned it.
"Why yes, I'm antisemitic, thank you for a compliment!"

Israel is probably the most revolting appendage on the face of the Earth. Just look at this shit - Apartheid dystopia with rainbow characteristics that cries about "muh liberal demogracy!"

Just fucking nuke it already! Please! Somebody!

>>468202
Corbyn hasn't been shy about his anti-zionism. Though it would be wrong to equate that with antisemitism.

Actual anti-semites often are pro-zionism, because they want Israel as a place to "concentrate" all the Jews. There is a antisemite-zionist alliance, because the Zionists also want that all the Jews should go to Isreal, because their project has a legitimacy problem because most Jews live outside of Israel and don't want to go live there. The Zionists calculate that more antisemitic persecution of Jews outside of Israel might push more Jews towards Israel.

So in reality Corbyn is probably on the least antisemitic side of the spectrum of UK politics. Considering that reality inverting double-speak is now standard it makes sense that he'd be accused off antisemitism.

>Just look at this shit - Apartheid dystopia with rainbow characteristics that cries about "muh liberal demogracy!" Just fucking nuke it already! Please! Somebody!

Netanyahu is working together with people who want to turn Isreal into a theocracy, in order to dismantle Israels legal system. He is already arming hard-right storm-troopers with weapons. If that goes through and really turns into a theocracy it might be that Israel really gets destroyed because it tries to start a holy war against a billion Muslims. Netanyahu has serious legal problems, and it might be that he's wrecking Israel so he can get away with "fraud, bribery and breach of trust"

>>468204
>in order to dismantle Israels legal system
you must've meant "Apartheid legal system" fag

I don't care about the finer legal details of the settler constitutional system for the few.

I don't care if it's a theocracy or "democracy", because it doesn't make a difference to the non-jews.

>Actual anti-semites often are pro-zionism, because they want Israel as a place to "concentrate" all the Jews.
Very few Jews oppose Israel beyond virtue signalling, just ask them if they support returning seized lebensraum back to the natives - you will immediately hear "b-b-but muh nuance! t-this is not practical!"
Jews know they always can count on the support of the Apartheid state, so it's in their material interest to expand it.

>Very few Jews oppose Israel beyond virtue signalling
some also periodically relapse into standard libshit imperialist apologia "Israel actually brings civilization and democracy to the region!"

just look at all the rainbow flags in the protests, I literally was Joker-laughing at this shit

Titus Vespasianus, do it again!

>>468102
labour/democrats would rather fund and help elect a right-winger from another party than Sander/Corbyn

So why they choose to run in these parties is bizarre. But they piss off righties for doing so nonetheless. Ton of my righty friends got freaked out Sanders became head of Senate finance. There's a role for both internal and external pressure, but they aint gonna get elected in these parties.

>>469741
These are neoliberal power-brokers, they have no politics, they see all parties as nothing more than organizations with a hierarchy. And the higher the position in said hierarchy they can get to, the higher the price they can achieve for selling out.

They don't oppose people like Sanders or Corbyn because they disagree with them, they see these people as threats to their ability to sell out, or as something that could lower their payoff. For those that have a sense of fairness, it doesn't go beyond everybody having the same opportunity to be a shill.

They also think that everybody is motivated by the same selfish goals as they are. And they're just better at it. They might be a type of idiot savants, they are extremely skilled at rising through the ranks, but when they gain a position of power they aren't actually able to do the tasks that these positions require. They rely on somebody bribing them to push this or that agenda and other people to delegate tasks.

They don't process information about the world beyond the relevance for social climbing, that's a major reason why they do self-defeating strategies. For example they do economic policies that cause massive de-industrialization and push social policies that result in rising scientific illiteracy but at the same time they try to build up military power which relies on a big industrial sector and a scientifically literate population.

If you try to explain the material reasons to them why the things they try to do aren't coherent, they get really mad at you because they think you are trying to trick them into doing something that harms their career prospects.

>2023
>still believing in politics
Either they get killed or they get corrupted (assuming they weren't power-hungry narcissist psychopaths to begin with).

>>469757
Yep, in my early political days, did campaigning for Labour and holy shit the narcissitic weirdos you meet.
Pretty much all "young labour", "young Republicans", "young liberal" types are careerist, NPD/Psychopath freaks. You know it from talking to them as well.