[ overboard / sfw / alt / cytube] [ leftypol / b / WRK / hobby / tech / edu / ga / ent / music / 777 / posad / i / a / R9K / dead ] [ meta ]

/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

"The anons of the past have only shitposted on the Internets about the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it."
Name
Email
Subject
Comment
Captcha
Tor Only

Flag
File
Embed
Password (For file deletion.)

Matrix   IRC Chat   Mumble   Telegram   Discord


File: 1681970098745.png ( 171.4 KB , 474x315 , ClipboardImage.png )

 No.468760

This is just a undeniable fact. The amount of dogma and fanaticism in MLism is unparalleled compare to any other ideology. It truly is like a religion.

They have religious leaders which have done absolutely nothing wrong and every time you point out anything bad about them or the actions of ML states, even when it is many times self admittently true, they will find any excuse they can get to protect their deities.

Here are some examples of real conversations I have had with Leninists:

"Why did Mao do these stupid economic decisions which lead to tens of millions dying?"

ML: "Well that was because he was tricked by a evil pseudoscientist. Also the CIA faked the numbers!"



"Why do you worship Stalin so much when the prophet Lenin himself before his death wrote about how bad he was and how he should be removed as general secretary?"

ML: "Lenin didn't really know how good Stalin actually was at everything. Also the letter is probably fake and written by the CIA (founded in 1947) in collaboration with the traitor Trotsky to destabilize Stalin's regime."

"Okay, what about Nikita Khrushchev denouncing Stalin in the secret speech, as being dictatorial and not aligning with ML principals? After that spending his entire life undoing his work."

ML: "You see the cracks of the USSR were already beginning to show. Khrushchev is considered by many a revisionist and his hate for Stalin was purely driven out of personal spite."



"You say that ML countries can't be imperialist, but what about wars like the one waged by COMMUNIST China against COMMUNIST Vietnam?"

ML: "China was just mistakenly tricked into supporting the CIA backed Pol Pot and so needed to support his genocidal regime."

These are just some of the conversations I remember that made the dogma and fanaticism really stick out to me. Even as a libertarian aligned leftist I always believed in some degree of leftist unity, but now I realize that cooperation between the two sides is impossible and even if it was, it would be counterproductive because MLism is the reason socialism hasn't already been achieved.

I guess we will have to wait another 100 years, assuming capitalism hasn't killed our planet with climate change already, until socialism's reputation isn't irreversibly linked to this genocidal ideology.
>>

 No.468761

File: 1681971591922.jpg ( 49.51 KB , 181x203 , godhatesop.jpg )

How many successful states do "libertarian aligned" leftists have? How many hundreds of millions have they lifted from poverty?

The only thing anarkiddies are remembered for is sabotaging communist struggles or being called retarded by communists. The CIA supported retarded anarchists during the cold war for a reason.

While Marx and Engles writing the most influential books of the 20th century anarchists were questioning the value of any type of organization at all. While Stalin was building the USSR and eradicating illiteracy and poverty anarchists were destroying the revolutionary movement in Spain. While Mao was uplifting China and Deng made China rich anarchists were being paid by the CIA to destroy communist movements in the west.

I think a thread like this would usually be deleted due to sectarianism, but I hope it will stay around as an example of how stupid anarchoids are.
>>

 No.468762

File: 1681989600311.png ( 322.62 KB , 1821x1138 , 6949f7fd5444eeb7.png )

Who the fuck says "libertarian aligned leftist?" That's not a thing, stop samefagging.
Dogmatism is reddit and is a hinderance to effective praxis and the evolution of theory.
Also please actually learn what anarchism is.
>>

 No.468763

File: 1681992657394.jpg ( 39.09 KB , 500x378 , comarad cat don't listen t….jpg )

>>468760
>This is just a undeniable fact. The amount of dogma and fanaticism in MLism is unparalleled compare to any other ideology. It truly is like a religion.
This sounds like projection, you have turned your ideological believes into a religious dogma, and when you get confronted with a different ideology, you try to insulate your believes by projecting your own failings on to "the other"

>"Why do you worship Stalin so much when the prophet Lenin himself before his death wrote about how bad he was and how he should be removed as general secretary?"

Mls don't worship Stalin, they just don't participate in the anti-communist delusions that paint him as Be-elzebub. By the way Lenin never wrote a anti-Stalin deathbed note. If you compare Stalin to other leaders, he gets a reasonably good score, because the ratio of correct/incorrect decisions is very high. Stalin also made mistakes and you can find lots of ML criticism, of that.

>"Okay, what about Nikita Khrushchev denouncing Stalin in the secret speech

That speech has too many factual errors to be taken seriously, it's also politically stupid to burn your predecessors. Corn-man should've done what the Chinese did with Mao, and give Steel-man the 70% correct 30% wrong treatment.

>"You say that ML countries can't be imperialist, but what about wars like the one waged by COMMUNISTS against COMMUNISTS?

non of the ML countries were imperialist (by the Marxist definition), there were inter-socialist military skirmishes, which was extremely stupid and reckless. It's important to cultivate a diplomatic core, that can diffuse these situations long before it turns into a battle.

>These are just some of the conversations I remember that made the dogma and fanaticism really stick out to me. Even as a libertarian aligned leftist I always believed in some degree of leftist unity, but now I realize that cooperation between the two sides is impossible and even if it was, it would be counterproductive because MLism is the reason socialism hasn't already been achieved.

So You wrote this long ass post just to declare that you're a sectarian. Are you a glowy trying to stoke infights ? Be reasonable and try to find common ground with ML, instead of solely focusing on things that you disagree with ML
>>

 No.468771

File: 1682004252857.png ( 2.59 MB , 1130x1270 , dogmoid eschatologist.png )

>vanguardists are dogmoid spergs
more at eleven lol

tho I would say leftoids in general are dogmoid spergs, with VERY FEW exceptions

take you for example..
<MLism is the reason socialism hasn't already been achieved.
no, dogmoid eschatologist, "socialism" (u mean communism?) "hasn't already been achieved" because it STILL is an open question if "socialism" as you leftoids imagine it is even POSSIBLE

the hard truth is, THERE IS NOTHING IN THE LOGIC OF HISTORICAL MATERIALISM THAT WOULD LEAD YOU TO THE CONCLUSION THAT HUMAN SOCIETIES ARE APPROACHING A CLASSLESS STATE

our observable data reveal the exact opposite tendency - FROM a classless state TO various class societies
any other conclusions are just speculations WITH NO BASIS IN OBSERVABLE REALITY

Goddamit, I really need to write that post about how I see SU in the histmat perspective, considering I came to the conclusion that it was a different from capitalism class society with a its own different mode of production.

So according to observable data points there exist at least TWO class societies with their own mode of production, based on a more general industrial base.
Just like before there were more than one different class societies with their own mode of production based on a more general agricultural base.

There is nothing here that points that histmat logic is moving in the classless direction. NOTHING.
>>

 No.468772

Maoists are MLs?
>>

 No.468773

>>468761
>anarchists were destroying the revolutionary movement in Spain
Sounds sus

>Deng made China rich

Deng made China's billionaires rich. The rest of China still works like dogs.
>>

 No.468778

File: 1682007949988-0.jpg ( 4.88 KB , 110x160 , nomenklatura.jpg )

File: 1682007949988-1.jpg ( 552.03 KB , 493x792 , pic1.jpg )

File: 1682007949988-2.jpg ( 364.64 KB , 504x785 , pic2.jpg )

File: 1682007949988-3.jpg ( 518.99 KB , 504x778 , pic3.jpg )

>>468771
>I came to the conclusion that it was a different from capitalism class society with a its own different mode of production.
If any MLs want to know where I am coming from, it is largely based on this book https://libgen.is/book/index.php?md5=D96F7CE0782E230A67155255D4F01F17

Tho I disagree with some points, as author tries to tow the line of orthodox marxist rigid classification of class societies too much (for example claiming that nomenklatura is as interested in extracting surplus as capitalists are, which I find dubious), his point still stands.
The big plus is that the author was himself a part of the nomenklatura class so he gives detailed "insider" information about how the soviet political system actually worked.

His description of nomenklatura fits the marxist definition of a class, that's what matters.

And before all the leninoids start sperging out about "b-but muh legal ownership!", I will remind them that legal sphere is just a superstructure. The primacy belongs to the physical world.
First there comes about a class relationship, and only then it gets reflected in the law (you could also argue that the amendments to the Soviet Constitution in the 70s that de jure enshrined the "leading role of the CPSU" in the fundamental law was such legal reflection of the existing class relationship).
>>

 No.468780

>>468771
From the perspective of historical materialism, class societies are pre-history, where humanity build up the material base for socialism and that's when history proper begins. During prehistory various class societies arise because higher level organization isn't sophisticated enough to prevent ruling classes from siphoning off wealth.

We are sort of in a temporary troth of labor power at the current moment of prehistory. Your pessimism is the result of lacking perspective.

The capitalist system is the last viable type of class society, of course a transition to socialism isn't guarantied but the alternative is the ruin of all the contending classes.

You can pretty much rule out that any new stable form of class society can arise. You can see that now, the more the current neo-liberal ruling class tries to consolidate power, the worse the economic systems they operate function, that's an early sign of class rule phasing out. When the capitalist class was in the ascendant it meant that the economy worked better the more power they got, not worse.

If there was any chance for perpetual class rule, it would show it self by producing greater prosperity. The best performing capitalist economy was when the social democrats reduced the class-power of the bourgeoisie. Basically you need powerful labor unions and a Soviet Block generating ideological pressure for capitalism to work right.

I think that the neo-liberal phase was a regression, but Marx never claimed that progress would be a smooth continuous upwards climb, he said that there could be setbacks too.
>>

 No.468781

>>468778
There are many valid criticisms of the Soviet System and the people that ran it's institutions, but the Soviet political system did not generate a class that owned the means of production in the way that capitalist or feudal class societies did. It's not a sophisticated point that you are making it's just a retarded attempt of narrative inversion.

The neo-liberals in the 70s tried to claim that the Soviet Union was capitalist because like the capitalists the soviets did economic calculation to optimize the use of industrial machines. They said because they wanted to make an argument that there is no alternative to capitalism. And when you say that all the socialist countries were class societies you are trying to say that there is no alternative to class societies.

The Soviet Union was lower stage socialism, that genuinely did have a chance at achieving higher stage socialism, but failed at realizing it's potential. And as such it does disprove that class societies are without alternatives.

Of course that doesn't mean that we should repeat the Soviet model until socialism is achieved. Of course we should look at all the problems it had and use that to improve future socialist systems.
>>

 No.468782

>>468778
>Tho I disagree with some points, as author tries to tow the line of orthodox marxist rigid classification of class societies too much (for example claiming that nomenklatura is as interested in extracting surplus as capitalists are, which I find dubious)
The problem here is, that we don't have information how a RES (Real Existing Socialism) society and particularly its ruling class, would behave in the absence of pressure from the other mode of production (capitalism).

The examples author gives of nomenklatura striving to extract more surplus value as an end in itself look more like a reaction to the external threats and pressures.
It's hard to discern what is an internal tendency and what is a result of an external pressure.

I would like to see a detailed dynamic comparison of the reproduction schemas of the Soviet and Capitalist economies, particularly in relation to the III department (consumption of the ruling class). In case of the soviet ruling class this department distinction was even more clear than in capitalism - they literally had their own nomenklatura stores, houses, city blocks, cafeterias, cars, etc-etc.
>>

 No.468783

>>468780
>From the perspective of historical materialism, class societies are pre-history…
Jesus. How the fuck to you believe this. This is pure scifi…. Entirely faith-based and has zero semblance of correspondence to material reality.

Come on, comrade Dunning Kruger. I really don't want to take Comrade Incel's side, but you are acting as a parody of naive sophomore polisci major Marxism.

<Nothing in histmat indicates a classless society is possible

>Sure it does, just listen to my poorly written scifi fanfic and trust me bro

>>468781
>There are many valid criticisms of the Soviet System and the people that ran it's institutions, but the Soviet political system did not generate a class that owned the means of production in the way that capitalist or feudal class societies did.

It was a society in which a distinct class *controlled* the means of production (or rather, their use) without having formal, private ownership over them. I don't see why it's so hard to admit that without becoming a full blown neocon.
>>

 No.468784

>>468782
>The problem here is, that we don't have information how a RES (Real Existing Socialism) society and particularly its ruling class, would behave in the absence of pressure from the other mode of production (capitalism).
The problem is the world isn't perfect
Jesus, you are retarded
>>

 No.468785

File: 1682012900192.jpeg ( 183.83 KB , 2048x1532 , 7E6DFAA4-8569-4F34-A294-C….jpeg )

Is leftychan just troll posting now
>>

 No.468786

>>468783
>How the fuck to you believe this.
So what delineates pre-history from history proper, is whether or not humanity is able to decide it's own fate, or weather it is subject to the stormy currents of systemic tendencies. We live in prehistory because we don't decide our own fate, the systemic tendencies of capitalism are imposed on us.

The reason why i consider that class-rule will be phased out is because there is no new class based economics that can materially justify it self with better economic performance. The capitalist class was able to assert it self over the feudal class because capitalism was economically more effective than feudalism. Capitalists were able to effectively deploy industrial machines while the feudal aristocracy wasn't.

Capitalist economics are deteriorating now, the capitalist class is no longer the agent that is effective at deploying new technologies, it has become a fetter on the means of production. And there is no new ruling-class that is any better at it.

The only economy that is still dynamically evolving it's economy is the Chinese one, and they do it by political direction overriding the Chinese capitalists, and they call that lower phase socialism, except that they use Chinese theory terms, "moderately prosperous society building socialism" or something like that. You can draw a parallel to social democracy where the bourgeoisie was also dis-empowered to the point that they were forced to act in the interests of society to a significant extend. There are of course many differences between social democracy and the Chinese system. The over-all point here is that the more powerful economies are the ones where the ruling classes have less power and control over the economy. In the grant scheme of things better economic performance will always win out, and the better economic performance is to had by giving less power to ruling classes. And that logic points towards classlessness.
>>

 No.468787

>>468784
>The problem is the world isn't perfect
exactly what I have said, redpilloid

doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to discern exclusive dynamics of this particular RES class society, especially as it is the only known industrial mode of production apart from capitalism

schemas of reproduction would shed a light on the part of the ruling class in the social reproduction of this particular society

further by comparing the the proportion of the III department in RES and Capitalism we can compare two ruling classes in their role in the reproduction process
>>

 No.468789

>>468773
>Deng made China's billionaires rich
God you leftists think in binary and rhetoric only I swear. He literally turned china from a backwater country to a more modernized one. He increased MoP and structures so quickly to the point that he overshot expected projections for his five year plans
>>

 No.468790

File: 1682014101908.jpeg ( 16.29 KB , 460x523 , Face-You-Make-Robert-Down….jpeg )

>>468785
No, apparently leftychan is just butthurt dogmoids posting one-liners with cat pic now..
>>

 No.468791

>>468783
>It was a society in which a distinct class *controlled* the means of production (or rather, their use) without having formal, private ownership over them.
I don't think that you are arguing in good faith, that your motivation is to criticize the Soviet union. I think you are ideologically motivated to label the soviet Union as a class society because you want to erase it as an example of a society that didn't have a ruling class, because you want to create a narrative that ruling classes are inevitable to make people give up on class struggle. The Soviet Union wasn't a class society, which makes it an example that class-rule can be questioned, struggled against and overcome.

If you are in fact motivated by genuine constructive criticism, you can still criticize the soviet political system without falling into a narrative that can be used for ideological justifying class-rule by implying it's inevitability.

Basically the Neo-liberals started repeating the criticisms that socialist made against capitalism back at socialism, so don't fall into that kind of narrative. Like for example saying that socialist societies had classes. You can say that the Soviet Union did suffer to some degree from social stratification, if you are trying to use this as a way to suggest improvements, but they didn't have classes, there is no way you can bend Marxist theory to support this. I'm not accepting your attempts to change marxist theory to make it fit this hypothesis of yours.
>>

 No.468792

File: 1682014783826.png ( 3.58 MB , 2560x1276 , weed_grinder.png )

>>468790
wrong it's apparently full of ukrop shitposters from 9ch/leftcel/ who got so assraped by Lenin on their national chauvinism that they decided to go full circle and become AOC fags
>>

 No.468793

>>468789
>God you leftists think in binary and rhetoric only I swear. He literally turned china from a backwater country to a more modernized one. He increased MoP and structures so quickly to the point that he overshot expected projections for his five year plans
You don't have to justify the Chinese system purely on structural achievements. Dengism raise the median income for Chinese workers by a factor of 5 in real purchasing power terms and a factor of 25 in monetary terms. Nobody likes getting subjected to more capitalism, Dengism wasn't fun or nice for Chinese workers, but it was in their material interests to a significant degree.
>>

 No.468794

>>468792
>AOC
i'm trying to follow the banter, but i don't understand this acronym, please help me out.
>>

 No.468795

File: 1682015456914.jpeg ( 63.26 KB , 774x1032 , bite it.jpeg )

>>468792
bite it, sperg
>>

 No.468796

>>468793
>but it was in their material interests to a significant degree.
I Guess that was my point. I despise leftists and “marxists” who think in terms of ideology and rhetoric. Their vision is
<less capitalism equals more socialism
But they don’t understand that the goal of Marxism is to advance the MoP to the point where capitalism is exhausted and then superseded
>>

 No.468797

>>468786
So the future system is one in which a bureacratic ruling class acts in the name of the people.

Otherwise, it sounds like you have a very rosy, somewhat orientalist view of modern China. I would expect nothing less from a burger.

And no, nothing you said leads to the logical conclusion that a complex society is somehow going to be classless
>>

 No.468798

>>468791
>I don't think that you are arguing in good faith, that your motivation is to criticize the Soviet union. I think you are ideologically motivated to label the soviet Union as a class society because you want to erase it as an example of a society that didn't have a ruling class, because you want to create a narrative that ruling classes are inevitable to make people give up on class struggle. The Soviet Union wasn't a class society, which makes it an example that class-rule can be questioned, struggled against and overcome.
You are such a dopey faggot. Happy 420, I guess

>you can still criticize the soviet political system without falling into a narrative that can be used for ideological justifying class-rule by implying it's inevitability.

If you weren't such a retarded permastoned faggot with dunning Kruger syndrome, you could recognize that the USSR was a class society that a) was fundamentally different from capitalism, and b) still a positive development compared to capitalism.

Too much real world nuance I guess. Continue writing scifi fanfic and daydreaming about a society without classes, where everyone is a winner. Dorky millennials

>>468796
>Two more weeks!

uyghur, get a passport and spend time in these countries you assume to know so much about
>>

 No.468799

>>468797
>a complex society is somehow going to be classless
Interesting thought.
Maybe class societies are indeed limited in terms of societal complexity.
Maybe civilization has to go class-less to unlock higher societal complexity.

I guess one aspect is that a class-less society doesn't generate wealth inequality when it increase it's societal complexity. That's definitely a big plus in terms of viability.
>>

 No.468801

File: 1682016919593-0.jpg ( 153.11 KB , 535x367 , 1.jpg )

File: 1682016919593-1.jpg ( 401.71 KB , 528x857 , 2.jpg )

File: 1682016919593-2.jpg ( 273.44 KB , 531x634 , 3.jpg )

If we look at the North Korea and Cuba we will see this pattern reproduced.

So considering the sample size of the RES societies - it is an inherent characteristic of the system itself.
>>

 No.468803

>>468798
The cacophony of insults isn't very interesting, it's like shit you have to step over to get where you're going.

>the USSR was a class society that a) was fundamentally different from capitalism, and b) still a positive development compared to capitalism.


Well at least you recognize the USSR as a historic force for progress. But i don't think it had class divisions, ruling classes always created extreme levels of inequality. And the Soviet Union didn't do that. I think you are misinterpreting social stratification. Social strata are generated when groups of people live in different worlds so to speak, and their live experiences create radically different consciousness, but that also happens within a class. The standard socialist fix for that is to do rotation, so that from time to time people share the experiences that other people have.
>>

 No.468804

>>468803
>But i don't think it had class divisions, ruling classes always created extreme levels of inequality.
Wrong and historically illiterate. Try again.

>Social strata are generated when groups of people live in different worlds so to speak, and their live experiences create radically different consciousness, but that also happens within a class.

this mumbo-jumbo has nothing to do with a marxist analysis of classes
>>

 No.468805

>>468798
Your a fucking retard who’s political caliber is measured by the insults you can throw
>>

 No.468806

>>468791
>I think you are ideologically motivated to label the soviet Union as a class society because you want to erase it as an example of a society that didn't have a ruling class, because you want to create a narrative that ruling classes are inevitable to make people give up on class struggle.
Nibba, look into the mirror lol.

it is YOU who are ideologically motivated because you so desperately cling to your eschatological baseless belief that the progress of human social forms has as its destination a classless society that you bend yourself into a pretzel with your mental gymnastics

I don't know if technologically advanced classless society is possible. Nobody knows. Not Marx, not Cockshott, not any other human being. And if they claim they do - they are fucking lying. That's the whole fucking point, dogmoid.

All we can observe so far is that the development of human social forms has gone from classless society to class societies. I rest my case.
>>

 No.468807

>>468806
This retard doesn’t know about money and it’s function
>>

 No.468813

>>468799
Why are faggot muhleftists so obsessed with equality. Literally just a secular version of Christianity.
>Muh the meek will inherit the earth

In all seriousness, can you name anything in the natural world that is equal?

>>468805
Comrade Dunning Kruger, I notice you don't actually dispute being a stoned burger millennial who is poorly travelled.

You clearly lack basic common sense or worldly knowledge, and have nothing to say but calling people retards (pure projection) when confronted about it.

Like I've said dozens of times, try being competent enough to spend time in existing socialist countries
Difficulty level (for you): impossible
Inb4: but they're not pristine examples of socialism like the ones that only exist in the imagination of faggot academics with soft hands
>>

 No.468814

>>468813
Go back to /pol/
>>

 No.468815

>>468814
Great response, comrade. You've definitely demonstrated that you're not a permastoned millennial dork who can't even drag themselves on an international flight. With this level of competency leading the left, I have full faith in the cybernetic socialist rrrrevolution!!!!
>>

 No.468816

File: 1682025054832.jpeg ( 152.81 KB , 736x920 , 3F335847-7A4C-49AF-9E9C-D….jpeg )

>>468815
Your whole “argument” is literally
>lol you wouldn’t live in aes!
Like some maga tard boomer.
<oh noooo i have to live in Pic rel please don’t make me go I’m actually scared of going there pls don’t make me go
>>

 No.468817

>>468816
No, I've stated my opinion a few times, but you're too much of a midwit to accept any nuance.
<Most of the positive claims about China are true, but it's not moving toward a classless society.
Inb4: hand waving about how "ackshully China (a place you've never been to) has social stratification but not a ruling class."
My other argument isn't that you *wouldn't* live in China. It's that you are too incompetent and hazebrained to make it a reality.
>>

 No.468818

>>468817
Lol I would live in china and I knew you were gonna do the whole china doesn’t count cope. I’m not an ideologue who sees socialist countries like a Jew sees Israel or some shit. It’s not some mystical holy promised land. It’s definitely a plan to visit a lot of the major cities in china because I think they look cool. Idk what your fixation with me goin right now is
>NOW NOW YOU HAVE TO ORDER A TICKET AND MOVE COMPLETELY AND PERMANENTLY NOW OR ELSE IM RIGHT
your a weird dude lol
>>

 No.468819

>>468818
Jesus you are dense.

More importantly, you are naive, lack common sense, and have practically no actually knowledge about what you're talking about.

How many times do I have to say this?

Like I said, permastoned millennial burgerdork
>>

 No.468820

File: 1682028384497.png ( 70.46 KB , 409x500 , Troll.png )

>>468813
>In all seriousness, can you name anything in the natural world that is equal?
Literally everything in nature.
Every bug, rock, tree and elephant own have the exact same amount of money.
>>

 No.468821

Ah OP is a fag. Ignore.
>>

 No.468823

>>468819
Okay fag
>>

 No.468824

OP the sooner you realize that retards living in the past will never move on to achieve anything of note the btter off you will be.
>>

 No.468826

>>468824
It certainly makes for easier praxis if you start from the belief that it's all already worked out for you, and all you've got to do is follow the roadmap. Because then you inevitably do fuck all, just like the rest of us.
>>

 No.468903

anchored for low effort
>>

 No.469126

go back to wikipedia and kill your self

Unique IPs: 15

[Return][Catalog][Top][Home][Post a Reply]
Delete Post [ ]
[ overboard / sfw / alt / cytube] [ leftypol / b / WRK / hobby / tech / edu / ga / ent / music / 777 / posad / i / a / R9K / dead ] [ meta ]
ReturnCatalogTopBottomHome