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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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File: 1683554689849.jpg ( 74.07 KB , 480x356 , wu-yun-hua-deng-xiaoping-m….jpg )

 No.469138

I see memes and arguments about "China is communist!" "China is capitalist!" blah blah but what's going underneath the memes? How is the economy run day-to-day?

There seems to be a lot of free-market activity. There is a stock exchange. There is obviously wage labour.

Are major sectors nationalised? Is it illegal to set up private enterprises in some sectors (e.g. trains, telecommunications)?

Comradely thanks
>>

 No.469139

>>469138
>I see memes and arguments about "China is communist!" "China is capitalist!" blah blah but what's going underneath the memes?
Static thinking.
The question you ought to ask is what is China becoming.

China has been moving economically towards the left since Xi Jinping came to power. They have poverty reduction and declining wealth inequality. Investments into public infrastructure, improvements of the productive forces and so on, and a public sector that controls the heights of the economy.

>There seems to be a lot of free-market activity. There is a stock exchange. There is obviously wage labour.


The first question you should ask is which class has political control. China definitely has a capitalist class, but they are not controlling politics.
The second question you should ask is what's the surplus being spend on, who benefits , and who makes these decisions.

For example China building lots of high-speed rail that's something where the masses benefit, they get affordable and efficient transportation. The US dumping gazillions into warmongering and bail-outs for casino-finance, that is not something where the masses benefit.

The Chinese state also directs a lot of the economy, the capitalists that do exist they have to adhere to the economic plans. If you compare that to the US for example, the economy is directed by private financial institutions like Wall-street.

When Adam Smith was still alive the words "free markets" meant markets free from rent-seeking capital and free from monopoly capital. China has more of that than most capitalist countries, but they call that "gladiator capitalism" (i think).

The goal of a fully developed socialism is of course to create a money-less economy that is democratically planned and controlled by the workers, that type of economy still has the consumer-feedback mechanisms of markets but it will no longer have the wealth distribution of markets, and neither will it have economic relations obscured by the veil of money.

However lower stage socialism will have capitalist elements, just like lower-stage capitalism had feudal elements. China is definitely lower stage socialism, their technical term is "a moderately prosperous society in all regards" Officially China is in the process of building socialism.
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 No.469140

>>469139
>Static thinking.
>The question you ought to ask is what is China becoming.
<Good start
>Proceeds to describe the wind rather than tectonic forces
>>

 No.469141

>>469140
>Proceeds to describe the wind rather than tectonic forces
I'm sorry but i don't understand that metaphor.
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 No.469142

It works by covering up stupendous inefficiency by throwing the largest population of workers in the world at their capitalist MoP.
And wouldn't you know it, as soon as there's not 10 of millions of workers to take 4 times as long as the West to screw something together their economy starts faltering.
>>

 No.469144

>>469142
>i don't understand
yes
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 No.469145

File: 1683573567446.jpg ( 80.09 KB , 937x783 , productivity.jpg )

>>469142
This sounds like a variation of the yellow-hord-meme.
China's rate of technological productivity growth is faster than that in the west.

In the west technological labor productivity has not increased since 2010 (see graph). Which is the result of western capital having stopped investing in it completely. The higher productivity in the west could become a historic legacy unless the western capitalists restart investments or there are changes in the political and economic structures that bypasses the bourgeoisie.
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 No.469146

First off, no actual country conforms to a "system" that is crudely defined and works by the numbers. Every society and the people in it operate in accord with interests that are sensical for them. The US, PRC, USSR, all had orientations for what they did that were about their real condition. If you speak of ruling a state by ideology, it was really being ruled by the interest of one of the major states that could establish itself as an entity whose interests were a thing they could assert. This meant that effectively the US, USSR, and PRC were the only states that mattered after 1945. This was basically how it was set up - the UK was effectively an American outpost and this would be the cope/gripe of the British, though seen another way, everything in the Americas was in one way or another a vassal of the British Empire and it never ended for a moment. The "vassal" of the United States was much larger and richer than the mother country, yet strangely beholden to an intellectual elite in England. This is because the "United States" as an entity was never what it was purported to be by those who thought it was a European nation-state. Those who held the US have always been about dissolving national borders and opening countries up to free trade. So, the United States' ultimate victory was globalization, and once that was established, there was no need for an independent "United States" with its interests. The interests of what is called the United States today are the interests of globalization, and the "nationalist" idea in the United States exists primarily by foreign instigation or those who see it as a way to keep the locals under control. Only a basically irrelevant movement suggests that there is an independent "American" way of life or value system which would assert itself. Americans are taught from an early age to doubt themselves on everything or given a fake pride to heighten their sense of failure and defeat, and maintain only a scattered recollection of what might have been an independent America had history went down a different path. So, you have to get what America is to get what the other countries are, because the entity of the United States is deeply invested in everything the other major states do. It is not that they can command the countries from New York or London, but the new world order established in the 1970s was premised on US-China cooperation to make globalization possible. This setup informed everything that neoliberals could do during that stage of world history - that they had to boost Chinese industry and strip away industry in other core countries, as this was no longer in line with the way the world would be managed.

China's economy is dominated by this relationship with the Americans, even though they now trade with the world and established strong influence in the region. If China ceased to be a partner with American enterprise, it would be destroyed and all this stuff about "building socialism" would have to be entirely redrawn. In the ranks of the Party there is basically no expectation of any socialism beyond lip service, and it is not even denied with any seriousness. China's plan is fairly simple and they state it often enough - they want to marshal China's population to become the world's manufactory, split off a middle class that is conscious of its distinction from the proletarians, and then eliminate the proletarians that do not meet the cut for their intended "socialism" by discouraging them from breeding, or living much of a life. It is an approach that must be tailored to China's position in the world and its history. You couldn't make them into Americans, or do in China what you would do to control Americans. Likewise, the methods China uses to control its people, and their understanding of the deal, would be rejected on sight in America. This is not because there is some essential and inexplicable difference - the two understand each other's history very well and their intellectuals and leaders share notes on what would work for their respective situation. There is a long history in both countries which must be uprooted, including recent history. For China, purging memory of the Cultural Revolution was the standard, and only recently has it become less taboo to speak of what that was. In America, the idea of "freedom" had to be reconstructed so thoroughly that the concept of freedom became its diametric opposite, and the concept that you could do things on your own that had been part of the American project must be reconstructed into making America the most controlled and regimented society on the planet. This is the process underway now - the reversal of long histories in the two largest single blocs of economic and political influence, which had been carried out with direct cooperation between the two up to now.
I really don't see the idea of flipping the hostility against Russia (former Soviet Union) to China, the way certain people want, and there is no way to section off the US entirely from the Old World. Even in the "Fortress America" scenario some Eurasianist retards imagined, the interests ruling America have inroads basically everywhere in the world.

It should be clear there is nothing but eugenics as the guiding idea in every country, and this alliance would maintain "world peace" among those who are partisans of it. So, in the main, all decisions the major states make, which are delivered to their colonies and the contested waste zones, are oriented around a eugenic mission. That takes precedence over any idea of economic cooperation of the older type.

Maybe this answers some of your questions or elucidates certain problems with this argument over what communism or socialism "essentially" is. None of these people thought they were going to make the world run on magic and unicorns, nor did they believe capitalism was a "natural system" or the default and institutional position that had to be abolished. By "abolishing capitalism", it did not refer to an ideology but the practices capitalism entailed - that is, the centralization of wealth in the hands of oligarchs, the domination of the trusts, and so on. That is what people saw as "capitalism" in the early 20th century. People in America did not see capitalism as "you get to sell things", but "you work for the robber barons or you get the hose". The option of "good capitalism" or "democratic capitalism" was anathema to what capitalists openly espoused. The capitalists made it clear they would kill any worker who wasn't useful to them, more and more stridently as eugenics rose to the forefront.
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 No.469154

>>469139
You’re too caught up in meaningless platitudes like left/right. If this is your mindset you’re going to miss the entire substance of chinas economy. No china is not shifting “left” because if they were, they would be extremely Maoist in aesthetics and they would prioritize their policies around “liberating” other nations for example, rather than developing their MoP with no strings attached
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 No.469156

>>469154
>they would be extremely Maoist in aesthetics
<China isn't going socialist because their aesthetics are wrong
You can't be serious.

>they would prioritize their policies around “liberating” other nations for example

If China starts exporting the revolution that means they start 20 proxy wars with the Americans over several decades, i don't know if that's really such a good idea. The Soviets won most of their proxy wars but in the end that didn't help them. China is offering the global south access to the means of industrial development. That does improve the material conditions of those people, and it does to some extend lessen the imperial grip.

The US empire will have spend most of it's influence by 2030 and after than they'll be pretty much done fucking with other countries. Every country that wants, will be able to flip the socialism switch and all China has to do is keep trading with them. Without an imperial hegemon to kill socialism in the crib, and without encirclement and trade-blockades socialist countries will be able to thrive. It's the slow path but it's low risk too. It'll take until 2100 for half the world to go socialist economically but that'll be irreversible.

China lately had considerable successes as a peace-broker, if they can build upon that and negate the capitalist tendency towards war, they would deprive the big bourgeoisie of the power to sacrifice people for war-profits. That would be a huge win.
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 No.469221

>>469156
<China isn't going socialist because their aesthetics are wrong
>You can't be serious.
Your reading comprehension is atrocious try again
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 No.471855

File: 1691647155880.png ( 34.75 KB , 1200x800 , ClipboardImage.png )

https://gowans.blog/2023/08/09/socialist-china-and-its-many-illusions/
“Socialist” China and Its Many Illusions
>Growth that depends in large part on US cooperation goes away when you no longer fulfil the prerequisites of US cooperation.
>>

 No.471856

>>471855
>Having used Western investment to vault to the first ranks of the global capitalist economy, Beijing has embarked on a second transition, this time from US economic partner to US economic competitor. Chimerica, the integration of China into the US economy, with the US as the union’s finance, R&D, and marketing arm, and China as its manufacturing base, has yielded to China 2025, Beijing’s plan to dominate the industries of the future, provoking Washington’s counter-measures to stop it.
This author appears to be confusing cause and effect here. The provocations are almost entirely one-sided and come from Washington.
>>

 No.471860

If you want to know about China's system you could listen to somebody with first hand experience instead of a hack like Stephen Gowans

Understanding China's economic system: Socialism with Chinese characteristics

<Learn about China's economic model with Beijing-based scholar Roland Boer, a professor at Renmin University and author of the book "Socialism with Chinese Characteristics: A Guide for Foreigners".


https://farside.link/invidious/watch?v=mgcyqkEOhQc
>>

 No.471866

File: 1691692607126.gif ( 819.54 KB , 176x176 , 03.gif )

>>469138
What is there to understand, brainlet? China is capitalist. It has the market in the means of production, it has the labor market, it has cycles, it has capitalist class, it has an operating law of proportional labor costs as a regulator.

It follows the path of Japan down to a T, including slowdown after a real estate bubble and corresponding demographic trends.
Export of capital also plays a growing role in Chinese economic policy as its economy enters capitalist maturity.

Chinese economic situation is eerily similar to German situation leading to ww1, only on a global scale. Just as Germany was a manufacturing hub of Europe, China is a manufacturing hub of the current world. Just as Germany was in an escalating fight with the old capitalist states for markets for capital and goods, China is in a fight with the old core states, as can be seen in Africa and elsewhere. Just as there was a trade war between Germany and England, there is a trade war between China and the US. Just as the capitalist world was in a depressed phase of the economic cycle then, the capitalist world is in a depressed phase now.

That's also why it is obvious to me that ww3 is inevitable. The writing is on the wall.

I can understand confusion of marxists when dealing with the Soviet Union, because it is truly an enigma, something other than capitalism, even on the most basic fundamental level - where capitalism has an inherent phenomenon of inflation, soviet system has a fundamental phenomenon of deficit.

But China is just your run of the mill capitalist system, there is nothing in there that the standard marxist theory hasn't dealt with before.
>>

 No.471868

>>471866
>In my static analysis of China, it's not checking all my socialism boxes, therefore it's capitalist.
We've heard this a million times before.
Things that can exist in reality will never be able to compete with your happy-place.

You have to look where all this leads, all these economic systems tend to run into contradictions, and how those get resolved will tell you more than anything. The western economies are not doing so well and hence import less from China. Lets see how China reacts to this, they could do 3 things:
increase their internal consumption (improving the material conditions for Chinese workers),
shorten the workday (improving China's demographics),
and redirect some of their slack-export-power towards poor and developing countries (improving their geopolitical reach)

>China is like late 20th century Japan

>China is like pre ww1 Germany
No there's no historic precedent for China's system. Marx said something about people having difficulties fathoming something new, and getting mentally stuck on historic analogies, because dead history weighs heavy on the minds of the living.

If they can continue improving their social outcomes, the development of the productive forces, and weather all the chaos that the declining US-empire generates, they will have a very good chance at completing lower-stage socialism, and begin building communism.
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 No.471869

>>471866
And speaking about the Soviet Union as this something "other", I find the theory that the Great Depression created it - the most convincing.

Stalin and his group can be correctly described as "centrists" in the party before the "Great Break". They were fine with the NEP, and their industrialization plans were in the context of NEP. They were closer to the right opposition than to the left opposition, Stalin even said that any talks about forced "dekulakization" is "anti-sovietism" lol. But the Great Depression changed everything.

That's also why the left opposition couldn't believe their eyes at what was happening afterwards and has gone full cope mode lol.
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 No.471870

>>471868
Again.

There is NOTHING in the Chinese system that hasn't been dealt with in the standard marxist theory. Occam's razor, bitch.

>No there's no historic precedent for China's system.

Yes, there is. I pointed them out in my post point-by-point.
No amount of nazoid screeching would change this.
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 No.471873

File: 1691697057967.jpeg ( 52.58 KB , 680x455 , very pure.jpeg )

>>471869
>the Soviet Union wasn't pure socialism
It was actually existing socialism.
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 No.471875

>>471873
considering that it showed a tendency to collapse, whatever it was - it was unstable

so if we assume that "socialism" is a stable self-reproducing system, then it follows that it was not "pure" socialism

basic logic, you should try it kek
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 No.471876

>>471870
Na you're closed minded and just refuse to admit that the Chinese invented a new system.
>>471874
>>471875
>the Soviets weren't real socialists because their project failed.
This old hat again. It took the bourgeoisie 2.5 centuries to make capitalism stick.
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 No.471878

>>471873
anyway

this is a thread about China, and I brought that point in the context of China - red socdems (I dunno how else to call you) claim that Leninist Party dictatorship is somehow automatically incompatible with capitalism, when it were the extra-ordinary circumstances (the Great Depression) that made it incompatible with that particular version of capitalism (NEP), and the case of China reinforces this theory.
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 No.471879

>>471876
>Na you're closed minded and just refuse to admit that the Chinese invented a new system.
it ticks every box in the standard marxist classification of capitalism

it follows the same reproduction patters as observed by marx and lenin

Soviet system after "the Great Break" was a new system. It followed reproduction patters that neither marx or lenin described.

I dunno how else to spoonfeed these basic logical conclusions to you.

You obviously aren't thinking rationally.
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 No.471881

>>471876
>It took the bourgeoisie 2.5 centuries to make capitalism stick.
Yes lol.

Nobody claims that medieval Italian Venice was "pure" capitalism either, theorylet.
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 No.471882

>>471878
What you are saying doesn't make much sense because those historic examples are not the same as present day china.
>>471879
>it ticks every box in the standard marxist classification of capitalism
Marxism looks at the dynamic development of a system it doesn't just do a cross-check with a static theory definition.
China's development doesn't match capitalist development at all.
It had a socialist revolution that kicked out the old ruling class and the imperialist forces.
The Maoist era was closer to the soviet economic planning model.
The Dengist period introduced market elements, but contrary to the expectation of almost every western Marxist, China did not get a neo-liberal counter revolution that sold out china to western imperial finance. Instead they got Xi jinping who started to roll back bourgeois power and their attempts at becoming a class in it self for them self that controls the state apparatus and political institutions.

Marx thought that socialism would come out of the most advanced bourgeois capitalist economy. In a way you could say that the Dengist were more orthodox Marxists when they began implementing partial capitalist economic relations to farm for advanced productive forces. Don't get me wrong, the market liberalizations were not pleasant, it resulted in an enormous increase in wealth disparity, but that's going down now.

If China actually was a capitalist country their economy would have been wrecked after the 2008 finance crash. There are no capitalist countries that could remotely manage the pace of Chinese development. China achieved in the last 50 years what most capitalist countries took more than 200 years.
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 No.471884

>>471882
>Marxism looks at the dynamic development of a system
I dunno what "marxisms" you are talking about lol

the system is fundamentally the same as it was at the start of the 20th century with the same accumulation patterns

only now colonialism is carried out through financial institutions and their loans, not direct colonial administration
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 No.471885

File: 1691703072994.jpg ( 96.23 KB , 900x593 , chinese-growth-slow-down-h….jpg )

>>471882
>China achieved in the last 50 years what most capitalist countries took more than 200 years.
But that's wrong. China achieved capitalist maturity and is on the brink of entering "the core". Pretty sure it didn't take Germany and Japan 200 years to achieve the same kek.

Also, you might want to re-check your notes kek. After the real estate bubble popped China grown is slowing fast.
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 No.471887

>>471885
>real estate bubble
totally real bubble that will have HUUUGE impacts and won't just be a microscopic pebble in the CPC's way just like every single "issue" western media has been predicting about china's economy for the past few decades
just 2 more weeks and china will collapse sister, trust the plan
>China grown is slowing fast
5.2% GDP growth projected by the IMF for 2023 is "slow" for the second biggest economy on the planet LMAO
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 No.471888

File: 1691704131058.png ( 148.62 KB , 1340x900 , chart.png )

>>471887
>5.2% GDP growth
kek

Again. You might want to re-check your notes.
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 No.471889

File: 1691705048105.png ( 1.24 MB , 2600x4720 , ClipboardImage.png )

>>471888
anything that isn't from scaremongering propaganda rags like FT/WSJ that rely on the CIA for sources?
https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/WEO/Issues/2023/07/10/world-economic-outlook-update-july-2023
seethe faggot
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 No.471890

>>471889
>projections
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 No.471892

>>471890
as opposed to unfounded liberal opinion pieces that cite the George Washington institute of blowjobs for their economic analysis on china
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 No.471893

>>471892
>IMF is not liberal
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 No.471894

>>471892
also, if you didn't notice, that 0.8% figure is not "projections"

we're in the third quarter now
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 No.471895

>>471893
>citing the IMF which gets data straight from the chinese government is the same as citing propaganda "news articles" and NGOs from washington
neck yourself faggot
>>

 No.471896

>>471895
>IMF is good
I got you fam
>>

 No.471898

File: 1691706311786.png ( 18.35 KB , 800x533 , ClipboardImage.png )

https://gowans.blog/2023/08/10/scab-of-the-world/
Scab of the World
>Displaced by competition from lower-wage Chinese labor, globalization's losers have gravitated toward the far-Right, which demagogically offers false hope. The China-addled Left, in contrast, doesn’t even offer the sop of false promises.
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 No.471899

>>471868
>Things that can exist in reality will never be able to compete with your happy-place.
We've heard this a million times before.
<Alright silly Marxist, you've had your fun, but now it's time to face facts and accept RÉALITÉ
Just more postmodern thought retardant from an idealogue, another rhetorical attempt to dilute principled analysis into a grey goo of non-sense. Yes, it doesn't check all the socialism boxes. If you disagree with those boxes, then propose an alternative definition of socialism. That's how definitions work.
I don't care if China might possibly potentially at some future point maybe eventually become le trve socialism + look at all these nice things they're doing!!! I want to understand the laws of motion of their economic system and see what mode of production is most dominant. Provide a real analysis or fuck off back to your ideological troll den.
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 No.471900

Also what these pro-China LARPers do is ironically the same as what the most dogmatic pseudo-Marxist cretins would - they are so terrified to admit that maybe, just maybe China might actually be capitalist, because what it would mean to them is that China is le bad guy cuz capitalism is… le bad! Really, all they have at the end of the day is moralizing.
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 No.471901

File: 1691707907177.png ( 2.65 MB , 1720x1146 , ClipboardImage.png )

how China is dealing with flood is unprecedented. This is the China that very few want to know among leftist progressives , the real China, and they think that China is going to save the world and they invest in it . Besides imposing a total black out on the event whereby the Chinese themselves have not been informed about what happened in their own capital. There reigns total darkness . But the people have registered what is happening . but the leftist progressives who turned a blind eye on the Covid pandemic and on the fact that it started in Wuhan where one of the major biological laboratories exists and as usual we never knew what happened and there is total black out imposed by the corporate and other media and any talk about the pandemic on Facebook and elsewhere was closely monitored and also censored .What transpires is that there were flood releases which means that some rural areas that were spared by the flood originally were submerged intentionally in order to spare the capital the coming disaster . This infuriated the people of these areas who clashed with the police . Those who think China will save them should know the incapacity of the rescue teams and the number of victims that China is trying to hide. . China only thinks of money and is a materialistic monster that can put to shame the United States itself and is sacrificing its own people
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 No.471903

File: 1691708052753-0.png ( 513.47 KB , 474x612 , 12345.png )

File: 1691708052753-1.png ( 209.09 KB , 539x307 , 579.png )

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>>471900
chins have been larping since the beginning
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 No.471906

>>471873
I generally like Parenti but this is just lame moralizing. Whether a government and its citizens actually have a capitalist system or not is a very important question with consequences for everyone else who aspires to move beyond capitalism.
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 No.471912

File: 1691716095562.png ( 91.28 KB , 400x311 , Chinabad.png )

Wow The China bad brigades are out in full force.
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 No.471913

File: 1691717565622.jpg ( 77.87 KB , 909x832 , China land becomes public.jpg )

>>471885
>China achieved capitalist maturity
First this is a meaningless phrase, if there was capitalist maturity what would capitalist childishness be ?

I would say that in China the capitalists are not the dominant class and hence it can't be considered a bourgeois class dictatorship.

>real estate bubble

China has reacted to this by shifting land away from the private sector into the public sector. The real estate hedge funds did try to threaten Chinese financial stability but they failed.
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 No.471914

>>471889
Thanks for posting this data, i was looking for something like this
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 No.471916

>>471899
>If you disagree with those boxes, then propose an alternative definition of socialism. That's how definitions work.
Definitions are static analysis, that's not very useful for Marxism. In Marxism it's not a question of does it match category A or category B. But rather where did it start and where is it going. Static analysis only give you the present state, it does not tell you how stuff will change. It's like looking at a still photograph of a billiard table, it will tell you exactly where all the billiard balls are, but it won't tell you what direction and speed the balls are moving. Marxism will only let you describe a path to socialism based on a set of material conditions, there's no easy recipe.

>I don't care if China might possibly potentially at some future point maybe eventually become le trve socialism + look at all these nice things they're doing!!!

But the "nice things" they're doing that stuff matters. Building lots of rail to get more efficient transportation for example, that's one of a thousand little things that add up to big improvements.

>I want to understand the laws of motion of their economic system and see what mode of production is most dominant.

Marxism is looking at the contradictions in systems. How they build up over time and cause crisis. The most interesting part is usually which class interests prevails during the resolution of crisis, and what factors play a role in determining that.

In the recent period which roughly began in the 2010s, China has gone through a few crisis, and each time the interests of labor got good protection, and the Chinese capitalists were not allowed to stage capital strikes (when capitalists stop investing into new production which causes economic downturns). Chinese capitalists have to invest in productive forces or they get replaced.

The question is what are the factors why China didn't turn neo-liberal and eventually sell off the country peace-meal. And that's not settled by a long shot. The Chinese say it's because they have a disciplined communist party that has roots in the military and controls the heights of the economy. Marxists like Micheal Hudson say it's because China has prioritized an industrial economy over a financial one. There is an idea that geography plays a role too, China wouldn't be a good spot to host an aggressive capitalist empire and that's why the bourgeoisie in China has limited prospects of how much power they can get, because what capitalist elements do exist in China can't activate the imperial stage of capitalism. There also is a very standard ML answer, China had a communist revolution that established a Dotp. Since they had no major political upheaval the class character of the state won't change.
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 No.471917

>>471912
China is just a place, where 1.3 billion people live. What's actually bad are the few who rule it, who exploit the labor of the many.
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 No.471922

File: 1691731306577.png ( 99.14 KB , 830x336 , Screenshot 2023-08-10 at 2….png )

>>471916
>Marxism is looking at the contradictions in systems. How they build up over time and cause crisis.
Nope.
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 No.471923

>>471916
>Definitions are static analysis, that's not very useful for Marxism.
Nice cop-out.
<according to Marx, socialism is whatever you want it to be, because words aren't dialectical!!1!
Contrary to your beliefs, Marx actually uses such "static analysis" in his works.
>But the "nice things" they're doing that stuff matters.
Only to someone who cares more about being an ideologue than actually analyzing the economic mechanisms of a society. Nobody serious about political economy cares if China is le good or le bad.
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 No.471924

>>471912
<anons try to see if China is or isn't capitalist
>China is le good, capitalism le bad, therefore China is not capitalist!!!
<well no actually that's not how that works
>Wow The China bad brigades are out in full force.
Sage is a downvote
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 No.471931

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Casually dropping loads of schizo shit so you won't ever bother again with le Porkies' Reepublic of Chynah.

Also, Xi was put into power by the ultra-chauvinistic army representatives, so even if these multiimperialistas will win against the modern world then be ready for a/the sequel for the US of A(sia): Eclectique Boogaloo.
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 No.471932

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>>471913
>First this is a meaningless phrase, if there was capitalist maturity what would capitalist childishness be ?
Except this is a basic world-systems framework, ie core - semi-periphery - periphery

maturity means core, characterized by:
1. Primacy of the export of capital in the external economic relations
2. Shortage of labor (including the optimal level of the reserve army)
3. Demographic trend with below reproduction level fertility
4. Concentration on the high value-added segments in the supply chain
5. Periodic real estate bubbles
6. Relatively slow growth
7. Relatively strong currency

>I would say that in China the capitalists are not the dominant class and hence it can't be considered a bourgeois class dictatorship.

Even if we assume that, that's not how it works.
Soviet NEP was capitalism, nobody denied that it was anything but capitalism, and yet it didn't have any big bourgeoisie at all - all factories were nationalized. But those nationalized "trests" were operating as capitalists, ie according to profit. This was a conscious decision by the party as a part of the NEP, to make the trests "feed for themselves" (which resulted in chronic inflation and "price scissors" effect as the trests were monopolists).

As you can see, even widespread nationalization didn't same Soviet Union from the effects of capitalism such as inflation. It didn't save it from the effects of the Great Depression either.

And obviously bourgeoisie has FAR more influence in the current chinese political system than it ever had in the NEP period Soviet Union. I hope you wouldn't deny at least this?

>China has reacted to this by shifting land away from the private sector into the public sector.

Sorry, but that's not how you call bailing out of the private real estate developers by the state.

Those properties are UNPROFITABLE, and they are on the balance of the state municipalities. The state covers its balance deficit by taxes, which ultimately comes down to taxing the proles. So we have a classic "Socializing losses, Privatizing profits" situation.
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 No.471933

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>>471932
wrong pic
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 No.471938

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 No.471966

>>471931
Xi Jinping has moved China's economy to the left so far. That's a pretty good sign.
We kinda have to see how well they deal with the US shenanigans like their attempts at starting a war in Taiwan.

I think the US attempts at toppling the chinese state won't go beyond 2030, and after that the Chinese socialist project has a reasonable chance at succeeding.

Also after the US empire is concluded the age of empire will come to an end. Not China nor any other power will play hegemon. The material conditions no longer allow for anybody to bootstrap a new empire.
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 No.471967

>>471932
>Those properties are UNPROFITABLE, and they are on the balance of the state municipalities.
Real estate hedge-funds aren't after profits they want rent.
The more real estate goes from large hedge-funds to the public-sector or individual people, the lower that parasitic drain. This is a W.
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 No.472602

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https://gowans.blog/2023/08/24/xi-jinping-and-his-republican-party-style-contempt-for-socialism/
Xi Jinping and His Republican Party-Style Contempt for Socialism
>The difference between the rule of capitalism-committed Communists and the rule of capitalism-committed capitalists is approximately zero. Even their maxims are the same.
>In a speech two years ago, the Chinese leader [Xi] said: “Even in the future, when we have reached a higher level of development and are equipped with more substantial financial resources, we still must not aim too high or go overboard with social security, and steer clear of the idleness-breeding trap of welfarism.”
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 No.472604

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 No.472605

>>472604
here's the embed

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