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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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 No.469819

Here's a video from The Grayzone about:
<the USAID's DC rollout of the dystopian Diia "state in a smartphone".
It seems as if Ukraine might be something like a test laboratory for this kind of stuff.
https://invidious.baczek.me/watch?v=GLulMeO3yA0

Another name for this is the "4th industrial revolution" How this is related to industrialism or why they counted to N°4 already that escapes me. In my mind the industrial revolution started with the steam-engine, the lathe, the printing press, the telegram, chemical fertilizers, … It keeps going and improving until the 70s when neoliberalism begins the ongoing process of de-industrialization.

Cockshot might have called it the Monarchist Revanche
https://invidious.snopyta.org/watch?v=DOGCi1hMRHs
hence the thread title.

I think that what's going on is the digitization of bureaucracy. I think that the neo-liberals are indeed intending to this to become a total control mechanism, that keeps everyone on a leash, a bit like what absolute monarchies were striving towards.

I do not think that this will kill off cash for example. Governments might abandon cash in the form that you can pay taxes with it, or that you can convert your bank-account money into it without extra steps, but that won't stop people from minting coins or paper-notes. Meat-space is still available and that won't ever change. I also think that this will not stop money laundering or tax evasion, because in the last 200 years the state apparatus always had the ability to crush the mafia, it just doesn't want to. (Relatively weak socialist states with nothing but paper-forms and couriers were able to get rid of the mafia.)

Some people might be tempted to draw a false parallel to Cybernetic-Socialism that also would eventually abandon money. Cybersoc will be able to do that because the digital-labor-time-tokens will be better than money, you'll get more for your labour-time-tokens and those don't carry a risk of having inflation because it's an objective measurement of time. What the Neo-liberals seem to be creating is the opposite of that, they want to use this to hold people down and keep them poor, in that case it will be easy to restore cash money because if people get more for that the masses will shift their behavior towards the better rewards.

I'm wondering to what extend this is related to the Chinese system with those social credits. Given the amount off seething from the Neo-liberals in the corporate press, one is led to believe that those social credits must be something good that benefits common people. I always wondered if that's some kind of alternative to money, something you can collect and then it opens doors that previously could only be unlocked via money. Something that bypasses the wealth-privilege-enforcement structures of the super wealthy, at least that would explain why that stuff was attacked so much in the corporate media. I also don't buy the official propaganda narrative about China, i think that their digital stuff had to bring people tangible material gains or else Chinese people wouldn't have adopted it.

I think that in the west the acceptance for this kind of stuff is low, trust in institutions is low, trust in technology in general is low too ,and the neo-liberals probably don't have the political capital anymore to ram this through. It's also questionable if their Ukraine laboratory test will go through, this might not survive the Ukraine war, since the Russians appear to have begun thinking about regime change.

Anybody in the know about this stuff ?
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 No.469821

your thread is a set of stupid assumptions, lack of knowledge, and misinterpretations. tell me gpt wrote this, I don't want to think you wasted your limited free time writing this.
I'm not even going to address your "points", but as a comment, the chinese thing already exists and it is just that, a centralized credit score regulated by the government, you could go and read about it on chinese sources and stop projecting your fantasies onto it like the western media
nvm, I almost forgot you don't "believe" in reading
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 No.469822

>>469821
>your thread is a set of stupid assumptions, lack of knowledge, and misinterpretations.
feel free to correct me, i don't mind your rude tone as long as you explain your self.

>the chinese thing already exists and it is just that, a centralized credit score regulated by the government, you could go and read about it on chinese sources

I don't read Chinese, and while it's easy enough to translate documents that you have, it makes it very hard to find new stuff. And the information that i did found suggested that people could get social credit points for doing things like recycling old glass containers. Which made me question whether this was just a credit score.
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 No.469823

>>469821
They don't call the Grey Zone Infowars for tankies for nothing.
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 No.469825

File: 1685721096780-0.png ( 6.06 KB , 691x151 , thegrayzone.png )

File: 1685721096780-1.jpg ( 44.71 KB , 720x354 , tankerinos.jpg )

>>469823
Not that long ago mainstream media spun up a crazy conspiracy theory that China was attacking the US with a balloon, they caused so much hysteria that the US Air-force ended up shooting down a $12 hobby balloon from a kid, with an air-superiority jet fighter firing missiles, costing about $1.5mil. They're looking at Infowars in the rear view mirror at this point. Alex Jones wishes he could stir up so much lunacy.

https://thegrayzone.com/
is actually a publisher of doing good quality investigative journalism.
When a bunch of hard-core neo-liberal institutions become exuberantly giddy about "digital democracy" that has to raise alarm bells.

>tankies

At this point that's just a synonym for anybody vaguely on the economic left, even mild social democratic reformers are being labeled as such.
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 No.469826

>>469822
you don't need to know chinese, and you know it. your only response to criticism is intellectual dishonesty because you don't want to admit you have no idea what you are talking about. please start using a tripcode so I can filter you
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 No.469827

>that won't stop people from minting coins or paper-notes
Which is completely irrelevant because that's not how money works. The stability of a currency is established by a state's ability to compel people to pay their taxes in the form of that currency. Funbux made by anyone else are simply commodities to be speculated upon.
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 No.469828

>>469827
>Which is completely irrelevant because that's not how money works. The stability of a currency is established by a state's ability to compel people to pay their taxes in the form of that currency. Funbux made by anyone else are simply commodities to be speculated upon.
Lol of course you can't make your own fiat currency.

It's still possible to create commodity money, that can be precious metals, but they can also be based on a basket of normal commodities, a little bit like those supermarket gift-certificates. At present hardly anybody is interested in these and they hardly exist, let alone circulate. The reason for that is that government fiat currency is easier to use and has no drawbacks compared to commodity money. However if what many fear or anticipate comes true and those digital currencies get used for political repression, then commodity money will gain an advantage of bypassing those risks. You can't say this isn't a valid concern, in recent international conflicts access-denial to financial-transaction-systems has been wielded as a weapon. Whether this will also be used against smaller targets like organizations or individuals, that's unclear at the moment.

You do raise a valid concern about the stability, precious metals are currently suffering from exchange value fluctuations that are significant enough to make it hard to use as a currency, mostly do to speculation. Commodity money that is derived off a large enough goods-basket should remain usable though. I'm not pulling this out of my ass, during the early period of the 20th century when there were a lot of problems with fiat currencies, like severe inflation for example. A lot of people began experimenting with various commodity money schemes. This is largely forgotten history at this point but there is no reason to think this phenomenon won't come back if material conditions for it arise.
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 No.469913

i won't comment on this but this is what ussr invented (ussr invented ipad !)

just like brazilians invented aeroplane
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 No.469918

>dystopian "state in a smartphone"
dengbros… I don't feel so good..
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 No.469919

>>469918
You're not entirely wrong to point this out.

However in China it's not really the state in a smartphone, it's the party in a smartphone. The Chinese state is very much a paper-machine. Party membership is mostly optional. Only the military and a few security related branches of government require party membership. party membership also might be an unofficial requirement for certain strategic sectors in the economy

Ironically enough if you want to do the American Yeoman rugged individual lifestyle about being a farmer that lives off grid while generating produce for cash, that's very easy in China because the state will even subsidize that, as long as it's a cooperative or family business.

That said China is pretty terrible on tech rights too, if you're a non-tech savy person buying the default-config tech gadgets, those have atrociously malicious anti-user features just like in the west. China also has tech illiterate politicians making stupid laws too, they even tried to ban ad-blockers. That said in the Chinese legal system laws are much more temporary. Rules are considered experiments and if people hate it, shit gets overturned very easily. So once the generation of people who grew up with technology enter the political system it's likely going to improve alot. In the west laws are like bricks in a castle-wall, fixing shit is very difficult and takes ages. If you had asked me 5 years ago of what civilization would win the race of making user respecting (satisfying the Richard Stallman standard of ethics) technology the default, i would have guessed that either Europe or the US would win, but with recent developments i'm not sure about that anymore.

China is also an ML system, so as long as you don't criticize the government too much, pretty much anything goes, which might sound unfree on the face of it, but considering where the west is headed, that might end up being less oppressive. Keep in mind that right now people in Germany are being prosecuted for having the wrong opinion on the Ukraine war.

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