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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

"The anons of the past have only shitposted on the Internets about the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it."
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File: 1692272703779.jpeg ( 40.22 KB , 696x465 , Luciano-Canfora.jpeg )

 No.472310

Opinions on this dude? He seems to be popular in Italian circles. Doesn't seem to be a dogmoid, dunks on retarded leftoids in his democracy book.

Tho his dismissal of Athens on the grounds that it was exclusionary of large parts of the population is unwarranted because it was still inclusionary of the majority of poor urban population that manned the fleets. Which should be far more important for a marxist than inclusion of fucking w*men, no?

But I digress.. Any garlic eaters here that can provide more context?
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 No.472311

Idk, but crying about Athens and inclusiveness sounds ghey though
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 No.472313

>>472310
>Any garlic eaters here that can provide more context?
N-no.
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 No.472315

>>472310
Sounds like a Socrates stan cope
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 No.472318

>>472310
I don't take anyone seriously who dismisses original democracy on modern contexts. The entire Mediterranean world was full of slavery and female exclusion at the time, that doesn't make Athens and other democracies stand out any less from the oligarchies, monarchies, and dictatorships that they pivoted from. There are still clear lessons to be learned from their exceptional examples.
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 No.472319

File: 1692285368410-0.pdf ( 1.28 MB , 200x300 , Democracy in Europe - A Hi….pdf )

File: 1692285368410-1.jpg ( 78.51 KB , 455x369 , jacobins and slavery.jpg )

>>472315
Nah, he dismisses "socratics" as well. His main beef is with the institute of slavery, and rightfully so.

His book is about modern times, ie transition from feudalism to capitalism and beyond. So he speaks about Athens to the extent that they are relevant to this subject (his chapter on Athens is more about the French Revolution). He makes parallels of Athens with its slavery to bourgeois parliamentary democracies with their slavery.
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 No.472321

>>472319
>his chapter on Athens is more about the French Revolution
wait, no, he has a chapter specifically on Athens in antiquity
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 No.472323

File: 1692290986080-0.jpg ( 91.75 KB , 460x427 , demos and citizenship 1.jpg )

File: 1692290986080-1.jpg ( 150.66 KB , 460x718 , demos and citizenship 2.jpg )

File: 1692290986080-2.jpg ( 109.03 KB , 463x530 , demos and citizenship 3.jpg )

File: 1692290986080-3.jpg ( 111.05 KB , 463x603 , demos and imperialism 1.jpg )

File: 1692290986080-4.jpg ( 57.28 KB , 458x290 , demos and imperialism 2.jpg )

>>472318
>The entire Mediterranean world was full of slavery and female exclusion at the time, that doesn't make Athens and other democracies stand out any less from the oligarchies, monarchies, and dictatorships that they pivoted from.
That maybe is a good enough argument for a non-marxist, but for a marxist differences in political superstructure don't matter that much.

Basically, his argument: differences between Athens and Sparta are quantitative, not qualitative.

Demos was a beneficiary of the Empire and of the institution of slavery, just as the propertied classes were - that's why a political alliance between them was possible.

Think about imperial core proletariat in the maoist third-worldist discourse lol.
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 No.472324

File: 1692291212352.jpg ( 71.18 KB , 458x351 , aristotle.jpg )

this is what he has to say about Aristotle
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 No.472325

>>472323
>maoist third worldist
lel
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 No.472326

File: 1692291903446.png ( 98.34 KB , 300x199 , oh peggy.png )

>>472323
>That maybe is a good enough argument for a non-marxist
I'm a Marxist and it is a good enough argument for me. Your No True Marxist garbage doesn't impress me.

>Think about imperial core proletariat in the maoist third-worldist discourse lol.
And laugh? lol indeed
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 No.472327

>>472323
>Demos was a beneficiary of the Empire and of the institution of slavery, just as the propertied classes were - that's why a political alliance between them was possible.
Tho the Empire ended after the Peloponessian war, while democracy lasted another century. But that the demos was a beneficiary (through taxes if not directly) of the exploitation of slaves is undeniable.
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 No.472328

>>472326
>And laugh? lol indeed
So demos wasn't benefiting from the institute of slavery and imperialism while it lasted?
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 No.472329

File: 1692292639934-0.jpg ( 43.22 KB , 462x224 , split in the upper class 1.jpg )

File: 1692292639934-1.jpg ( 146.6 KB , 460x712 , split in the upper class 2.jpg )

File: 1692292639934-2.jpg ( 22.01 KB , 460x106 , split in the upper class 3.jpg )

On the split in the propertied class.
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 No.472330

>>472328
And? Should we then dismiss the experiment, the concept of democracy, and the observations that led people to overthrow oligarchies and establish it in the first place because it didn't comport with our modern all-liberating, all-inclusive form of government we want to strive towards? By the way, Athens wasn't the only democracy in the Greek world.
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 No.472331

>>472330
>modern all-liberating, all-inclusive form of government we want to strive towards
Or, to be perfectly blunt, what some leftists appear to want to strive towards. Others seem like they would prefer the Orwellian fraud of electoral oligarchy invented in the 18th century, readily dismissing the entire concept of real democracy on the grounds of ancient democracy's imperfections and Aristotle's aristocratic apologia.
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 No.472333

File: 1692294450935-0.jpg ( 34.32 KB , 461x170 , ancient citizenship 1.jpg )

File: 1692294450935-1.jpg ( 152.37 KB , 460x718 , ancient citizenship 2.jpg )

File: 1692294450935-2.jpg ( 149.56 KB , 457x717 , ancient citizenship 3.jpg )

File: 1692294450935-3.jpg ( 138.29 KB , 456x725 , ancient citizenship 4.jpg )

File: 1692294450935-4.jpg ( 114.62 KB , 461x542 , ancient citizenship 5.jpg )

>>472330
>the observations that led people to overthrow oligarchies
I'm not against direct democratic mechanisms, but you overestimate the differences between ancient "democracy" and "oligarchy".

Geographic determinists win again lol.
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 No.472334

Also, can we please agree how retarded was Pericles with his war plans? Get besieged in an overcrowded city and don't expect a plague? Really?

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