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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

"The anons of the past have only shitposted on the Internets about the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it."
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File: 1709642773639.png ( 1.02 KB , 203x164 , alt-stylized-soc-flag.png )

 No.479519

Assume
<established cybernetic socialism
<Athenian/sortition/appointment-by-lot democracy
<economy runs on socialist cybernetic planning with labor vouchers and free labor association (what free market ideologues promised, but not delivered)
<socialist country is militarily secure, the population is heavily armed and people's militias are well organized. The professional military established deterrence with heavy long range weapons.

Lets discuss internal security
I propose we dissolve the traditional separation between foreign and domestic spy-agencies.
<Domestic spy agencies are defense.
<Foreign spy agencies are offense.

Most of the countries around the world have imposed population mass surveillance regimes. That means that all their spies have now been unmasked. Either their spies get caught in their own surveillance drag nets, or they stand out as the part of the few that weren't. The premise is that governments will always be able to penetrate each others organizations. The most efficient way of finding foreign spies is now achieved by breaching the other sides mass surveillance system.

If the socialist country turns off it's mass surveillance system (that it probably inherited from the previous bourgeois dictatorship). The socialist spy agencies become more invisible and much more effective than their counterparts.

We would get a huge political bonus for enabling people to have privacy again. And potentially also more economic dynamism because the surveillance Panopticon probably dampens that as well.

We could easily fend off CIA color revolution type regime change attacks because our more effective spies can find all the other-side's agents/handlers via their own mass surveillance, their counter-intelligence will not be able to do that, if we don't have mass surveillance.

Offense is often more efficient than defense, if imperial capitalist countries seek to conduct old-school sabotage, the socialist spies who possess greater invisibility would represent the superior ability to retaliate, and function as a persuasive argument that seeking co-existence with socialist countries is the only viable option.

<The upside is much greater defenses against outside attacks.

<The downside is much weaker defenses against counter-revolution from the inside.

Conclusions

Basically we'll know about a counter revolution when they begin engaging in violent terror. That ends in the proletarian state crushing the counter-revolution by killing the counter-revolutionaries. Messy bloodbaths are very undesirable, but allowing the counter revolution to develop to the violent stage has the advantage there is no ambiguity about who the bad guys are. All the ideological reinforcement stuff, thought-police and political-repression bullshit would become entirely superfluous.

The rest of society could have maximum freedom. We could have nice things like true free-speech, meaning everybody can express political opinions un-impeded and fully anonymously (anonymity = no intimidation). Cultural warfare like moralizing and which-hunting would be rendered ineffective. This would be a very pleasant society where nobody can bug you with their brain-worms.

In the history of socialist countries, the biggest problem has always been attacks from foreign state actors (mostly the capitalist imperialist kind). Once your population is living well and the societal wound of an underclass inflicted by capitalism has been healed by effective social welfare. The hyper-divisive cast/stratification mentality will subside. Social instability will only originate from residual ruling class elements and potentially some innately power hungry nutcases (with an incurable bow-down-before-me mental illness). That is very few people. So quantitatively the amount of state-violence against the population would be very low, but when it does happen it probably would be on the more spectacular side.

Is this a good compromise ?
>>

 No.479524

File: 1709675532680.jpg ( 87.84 KB , 1600x800 , Coup53.jpg )

Your premise is way too far in the future to be anything other than fantasy. If we get to the point where your assumptions are true, life would be unrecognizably different and I don't know what kind of attacks we would face.

But I think America's strategies in regime change are under-studied by leftists. How come their tactics haven't been co-opted by the left yet? Off the top of my head, let's look at some broad things that the CIA does to overthrow a government:

> Fund right wing extremist groups or religious extremists

< Do lefty groups lack funding? Is that the problem? Common some of you anons are in IRL orgs, what do they materially need to be successful?

> Color revolutions (you mentioned) and protests

I'm thinking of the hong kong protests, but those didn't overthrow anything. Perhaps we should study how places like Iran had their democratically elected government overthrown by the CIA / british feds in the 50's. There's a documentary about that called Coup 53 that I haven't watched yet (picrel).
< leftists should by now know how to protest but maybe they've forgotten

So what does the CIA do that leftists can't? If it's a lack of resources, which ones? I think we need an objective list.

Also for those that are more well-read than me, what other tactics have been employed? Can they be co-opted?

So yeah let's bring this discussion down to earth a bit and think about what we can use that's already been tried and tested by the ruling class. It's been occurring more and more to me that the point of "seize the means of production" shouldn't be to destroy everything and rebuild, but literally use and appropriate every fucking function that capitalism has invented, shamelessly.
>>

 No.479527

>>479524
A simple and very effective CIA operation to study is the original "orange revolution" in Ukraine in 2004. Victor Yanukovych won a presidential election but the CIA was able to organize enough protests to compel two new elections (the Ukrainian constitution only allows for one) until they got the result they wanted.
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 No.479528

>>479524
>premise is way too far in the future
>life would be unrecognizably different and I don't know what kind of attacks we would face.
the implication of the thought experiment in the opening post is that going hardcore privacy respecting has strategic advantages.

>Do lefty groups lack funding? Is that the problem?

in a way yes
>what do they materially need to be successful?
i'm convinced that socialists cannot copy the methods of political struggle that the bourgeois factions use, because those do commodified politics, which is a kind of simulated fake politics.
Socialists might need a less sophisticated version of labor vouchers as an economic circuit for political struggle.

>I'm thinking of the hong kong protests, but those didn't overthrow anything.

Maybe Chinese counter intelligence hacked into the US surveillance system, and used it to find out who the CIA handlers were, and that's how the Hongkong color revolution was shut down.

>Perhaps we should study how places like Iran had their democratically elected government overthrown by the CIA / british feds in the 50's

The Overthrowing of Mossadegh ? What could we possibly learn from that, we don't want to overthrow democratically elected governments, we want to have democratically elected governments.

>So what does the CIA do that leftists can't?

Lie, cheat and steal, according to Mike Pompeo.
CIA tactics are what the Nazis called 'zersetsung' , dissolving of society , they might have gotten the idea for that from absorbing the Nazi spy-network after WW2. Leftists do not want to dissolve society, CIA means do not serve lefty ends.

>So yeah let's bring this discussion down to earth a bit and think about what we can use that's already been tried and tested by the ruling class.

Well for example the ruling class wanted to start a big war in Ukraine, they funded and armed a bunch of Ukrainian fascists to split Ukraine in two, that caused a civil war which eventually escalated into a bigger war. While that strategy technically worked, what possible use could we have for that ?
We need a counter, something that heals divisions not exasperates them. Divide and conquer doesn't really work for us.

>It's been occurring more and more to me that the point of "seize the means of production" shouldn't be to destroy everything and rebuild,

Well neo-liberal economics and neocon ideologues are currently dismantling everything, so we need to look into rebuilding anyway.
>but literally use and appropriate every fucking function that capitalism has invented, shamelessly.
Not sure if you can overcome capitalism just by gaming capitalism. The bourgoisie overcame feudalism by generating their own separate economic circuits and political super-structure.

If there was a socialist system and a capitalist system existing in parallel, it would be possible to game capitalism to relocate the means of production from the capitalist system to the socialist system. But it would be necessary to bootstrap a socialist system that can run in parallel before that.
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 No.479534

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>>479519
dog, what a fucking retarded tldr

>In the history of socialist countries, the biggest problem has always been attacks from foreign state actors

lol only the in minds of idealistic shizo leninoids

the biggest problem always was economic backwardness and fucking retarded vanguardoid political system

you assume direct democracy with fucking secret police retardoid, when direct democracy REQUIRES transparency

ie you don't understand wtf you are talking about
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 No.479574

>>479534
So you didn't read the opening post. Because it said it wouldn't require internal secret police.

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