/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

people have no money

>>481622
>people have no money
I understand the reasons why people take bribes. I'm not asking for unrealistic virtuousness.

I'm suggesting that people who do refuse bribes, to change their strategy towards redirecting bribes instead.

Bribes become a less efficient means for wielding influence in a society if a significant amount of bribes just get diverted to something else.

>>481623
So you're saying take the bribe but then do the right thing? Won't you get killed for that?

>>481674
>take the bribe but then do the right thing?
Yes that would be the optimal case, but just taking the bribe for yourself and not doing anything, would also work. The goal is to make bribes inefficient at influencing society.

>get killed for that?
Well you are correct that the bribery-system would try to counteract such developments.

However murder is not an effective strategy. It is very expensive getting away with murdering decision-makers in organizations. Like that would involve bribing the police to get them to screw up the murder investigation on purpose. Don't forget that those can also just take the bribe and do a proper investigation anyway. Do you propose murdering those as well ? It seems like that one bribe creates a avalanche of bodies. If you zoom out this has just become primitive power through violence. Virtually all societies have a tendency to get really good at frustrating that.

It also represents a irrational escalation from a game-theory perspective. Some ruthless people would take the bribe and pre-emtively kill who ever bribes them. I guess that would be pretty rare but still, murder is risky business. Somewhat more likely is that if the bribe is big enough they could take it and run. But the most likely response would be aggressive opportunism. Intelligent people will use this for a set up. They take the bribe, collect evidence of the murder attempt and use it for blackmail to get more bribes. I guess that's likely how some trigger happy mafia organizations got bled dry.

We can conclude that murder is a shit strategy, "the last refuge of the incompetent" to borrow a phrase from a famous science fiction author. But the general idea that the bribery system would seek to compensate is valid. There is more than one layer to this thought experiment, maybe you can come up with something more clever and less blunt, and then we can examine that layer.

>>481677
That's a really interesting chain of thought.

>maybe you can come up with something more clever and less blunt, and then we can examine that layer
Well I'm not lucky enough to be in a position to take bribes hahaha so I don't really know how it works.

Honestly maybe this should be taught under socialism as an effective means to combat corruption.

>>481697
>Honestly maybe this should be taught under socialism as an effective means to combat corruption.
Very subtle, but yeah the various socialist systems also had bribery problems too.

The broader implication is that you think pushing for a culture of incorruptibility is not possible in current conditions ?
Are you saying we should try to find ways to bribe people to do the right thing ?

The easiest solution to bribery is to not use the oligarchic institution of elections in the first place. Controlling officials is much more difficult with an actually democratic sortition body.

>>481705
OK that's fair.
But how would we get the sortition body ?

>>481621
Bribery is just a special service sector in the system for its' actors of high enough position. Bribery is needed when the organisation of any kind 4 1 reason or another doesn't have the particular ways 2 do some unconventional business deals.
So until there is any organisation, there would be so-called corruption (= dealing around the established system), due to the inherent inefficiencies of an organisation as a concept. You cannot build an all-transaction encompassing system of relations due to the added complexity load after each solved way of dealing.
>Like take the bribes and use it for something else.
Unironically you will get wiped out 4 actual corruption of the system by your fellow org agents if you would ever behave this way. Standing in the way of doing actually needed business is declaring death sentence to its efficiency, & the org will defend itself against such rogueness. That's why in any actual elite circle there's a requierement for openly doing something dirty as a proof of your nature, & the need 2 keep your conforming behaviour consistent.
So do resort to trying to bribe officials only in the worst case scenarios since by helping you these agents undermine their own systemic position even if they will reciprocate your needs.

>>481722
So, again, the bourg-popularized meme about le badness of le "corruption" is built on the presupposition of a need in keeping the system working in a certain, defined way.
But you don't even need 2 be a marxoid 2 notice that a system never xists by itself, 4 itself. No, it xists 4 driving specific interests. Hence, whenever a system is, inevitably, unable to provide a framework for conducting a particular action for satisfying certain class interests, this entire system or just some of its subsystems get ignored in conveying that deal in question.
Hence, in trying to only allow deals that adhere to an xisting system for the sake of preserving all business defined in a certain way you serve not the class interests for which this system xists, but the system itself, which is a grave fetishistic mistake.
Hence, by trying to actually "fight the corruption" you, "ironically" fight the reason this system xists in the 1st place, & that will get you removed from it, for corruption of satisfaction of class interests.

fuk im so fukd up rn imout i hope you got it or smth

>>481723
Ah yeah, the dealing system ofc gets fine-tuned, refactored, reformed & xtended all the time still in the constant pursuit of optimization of dealing by standardizing & accounting it if it makes practical sense, but again, you can only go so far until it just becomes impossible to maintain & it fucking implodes upon itself, falls apart & dies in a revolutionary fire.

>>481722
>Bribery is just a special service sector
<It's not a bribe it's a " "special service" "
lol

>for its' actors of high enough position.
I don't get it people in high positions get payed higher salaries. If that's not enough to dissuade people from taking bribes, it's kind of a waste.

>Bribery is needed when the organisation of any kind 4 1 reason or another doesn't have the particular ways 2 do some unconventional business deals.
I don't know what that means

>So until there is any organisation, there would be so-called corruption (= dealing around the established system), due to the inherent inefficiencies of an organisation as a concept.
<corruption makes the system more efficient
thunderous laughter

>You cannot build an all-transaction encompassing system of relations due to the added complexity load after each solved way of dealing.
We have computers now, so technically complexity is no longer an issue. That said i don't see an all encompassing system as desirable, and i certainly don't want to enable all transactional relations. Really horrible stuff like human trafficking or killing people to harvest their skin (like the Zionists did in the gaza hospital mass graves affair), that's technically a transactional relation. That stuff won't be missed.

>Unironically you will get wiped out
I grow tired of the implied death threats. If people get vigorously executed for corruption, than corruption goes away. Obviously propping up a system by killing people isn't a reasonable approach. So if you need to kill people to make the bribes work, that means it doesn't really work. I think the idea of a culture that erodes bribes, by making it honorable to not reciprocate to bribes, is elegant, it requires no violence, no bullying, no complicated systems. Imagine how much better the world would be now if all those politicians had taken the bribes from the Zionist lobby and then turned around to cut off the weapons to Israel anyway and send the police to beat up the Zionists instead of the student protestors. There wouldn't have been a genocide. The People in the middle-east/west-asia would have recognized the US saved the Palestinians and gone hmmm maybe the US isn't the great Satan after-all, maybe we can work with them. You know the US getting a softpower win in the Arab world.

>in any actual elite circle there's a requierement for openly doing something dirty as a proof of your nature, & the need 2 keep your conforming behaviour consistent.
I know, i figured out how that mechanism works as well, admittedly i was being dense and only realized it after the sex-island-scandal with that infamous guy getting murdered in prison. It's a terrible system that selects for terrible people. There might be an elegant way to erode the power of this too. The power would jump to the bureaucracy below the "elite circles". While far from ideal it might be an improvement.

>>481723
>>481724
Yeah those posts make more sense. Hope you'll get better.

I doubt that making corruption go away will end capitalism. Maybe some bits of it go away, but yeah it's not gonna be that easy.