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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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 No.489611>>489612>>489628>>490442

Anarcho-capitalism is impossible because no ideal society is possible, anarchy is disobedience to authority and free association and communism is a movement that abolishes the present state of things, not a society. If our history is class struggle then thinking about the future society is a distraction from it. Nothing but praxis matters, the strength of the far-left isn't that its ideal societies are better but rather that they actually do shit instead of sitting on the Internet all day and mining crypto or voting in elections and marching on meaningless protests that lead nowhere and achieve nothing or supporting economic superpowers that don't care about them and barely acknowledge their existence.

Go read Bordiga or Negri or whatever, I dunno.
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 No.489612

>>489611 (OP)
>Anarcho-capitalism is impossible
True.
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 No.489628>>489642>>490442

>>489611 (OP)
It's impossible because it's an oxymoron. Capitalism needs a government.
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 No.489642>>490442

>>489628
>It's impossible because it's an oxymoron
It's impossible because it's a utopia, it not working is merely a side-effect of utopian thinking. Because utopian thinking is always alien to praxis, it's all just ideas on paper.
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 No.490439

>Anarcho-capitalism is impossible
could've ended it there
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 No.490442>>490444>>490445>>490456

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>>489611 (OP)
>my government school told me that life without the government is impossible
Color me surprised.

>anarchy is disobedience to authority and free association

Another word for anarcho-capitalism is voluntaryism i.e. all human relationships should be voluntary. Anarcho-capitalism is not disobedience to free association it is only free association.

>Go read Bordiga or Negri or whatever, I dunno.

Why don't you try reading some Austrian economics? It will at least give you a better understanding of what you're trying to argue against. You can't effectively oppose something if you don't even know what it is. You're like a christian trying to disprove evolution without reading darwin.

>>489628
>Capitalism needs a government.
This statement is trivially disproven. What do you think a black market is? What government is controlling the darknet drug markets? People in Somalia ran their own stock market without a government. You don't need government to have property rights, free trade and free association. In the long run government destroys all 3 of those things.

>>489642
>It's impossible because it's a utopia
It's not a utopia. Why does everything have to promise utopia to be worthwhile? Distributed voluntary free market trade will always yield better results than centralized violence based monopolies. Once you accept that fact then there is no reason to continue supporting the centralized violence based monopoly called the state.
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 No.490444>>490447

>>490442
>What do you think a black market is? What government is controlling the darknet drug markets?
Quite a lot of the black-market drug trafficking is basically how spooks like the CIA generate secret funding for super secret missions that are totally for your security, pinky promise. People used to call it the Cocaine Import Agency for a reason. Makes you wonder how much controle they have over that.

Also consider that some people like to buy groceries once in a while, and do not subsist off drugs. Where's the black market for potatoes and beans ?

>Distributed voluntary free market trade will always yield better results than centralized violence based monopolies.

I will grant you that free(as in non-coerced) decentralized markets did exist, but those relied on external mechanisms to prevent wealth centralization. The economic results were medium, as is in better than markets that lacked wealth centralization prevention.

What Ayn Rand advocates leads to corporate fiefdoms that likely are very violent, and on top of that are likely to be dramatically out-competed by state directed economies.
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 No.490445>>490447

>>490442
Jesus what a stupid cunt. If only the Soviets hadn't let her escape.
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 No.490446>>490587

the problem with anarchocapitalism is that eventually you run out of being 14
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 No.490447>>490450>>490451>>490454>>490458

>>490444
>Where's the black market for potatoes and beans ?
In the USSR. Cuba. Venezuela. And soon New York.

>free(as in non-coerced) decentralized markets did exist, but those relied on external mechanisms to prevent wealth centralization

Free markets are self regulating because when one person gets too big and greedy there are a dozen smaller people waiting to swoop in with lower prices. This idea that if you just leave everyone alone then 1 person will somehow end up owning everything is nonsense with no evidence in reality.

The reason we see so much wealth centralization in our current economy is because of external mechanisms (the state) stepping in to protect big corpos with bailouts and protective tariffs and legal immunity and regulations that smaller competitors can't afford to comply with. And sometimes the state straight up force citizens to buy corporate products. All of that is what leads the wealth centralization.

>What Ayn Rand advocates leads to corporate fiefdoms that likely are very violent

Based on what? All the drive by shootings that Burger King does on McDonald's? Private companies make money through voluntary trade. Violence is a cost. An expense. A risk. Even the drug trade is only violent because of the cops trying to stop it not because of the drugs. Violence is only profitable when you can externalize the cost the way the state does e.g. buying weapons by stealing tax money from workers and enslaving people to fight in wars.

>on top of that are likely to be dramatically out-competed by state directed economies

They don't. Central planning doesn't work. The reason China is pulling ahead is because they have 'less regulations than the west. Elon recently had to buy an old abandoned factory in Memphis and fix it up because getting a government permit to build a new factory would have been significantly slower and more expensive. The more government fucks with the economy the worse the economy will be.

>>490445
>if only the USSR had kept her prisoner and stole all her property and forced her to live in poverty that would totally prove her wrong!
That's really not the dunk you think it is.
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 No.490450>>490511

Never in the history of civilization have markets existed without a state to set them up.

>>490447
Actually, having a basic grasp of the history of the modern period is what proves that stupid cunt wrong. Everywhere capitalism emerged it was through looting and coercion. The first step was to enclose the common land in Europe and thereby throw subsistence farmers into the cities so they could perform wage labor.
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 No.490451>>490511

>>490447
>All the drive by shootings that Burger King does on McDonald's?
No, all the drive-by shootings that Chiquita does to banana workers when the Panamanian state is too weak to confront them.
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 No.490454>>490511

>>490447
>soon in New York
Wow, the US is going to impose sanctions and decades of economic warfare against NYC?
That seems really dumb.
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 No.490456>>490457>>490511>>490574

>>490442
>What do you think a black market is?
Capitalism isn't "markets", it is private control of the means of production. That's not enforceable without a government or other means of violence. You can't have freedom under capitalism.
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 No.490457>>490511>>490574

>>490456
lolno, capitalism is wage labor for the production of commodities. Feudalism and slavery didn't become not-feudalism and not-slavery when the state owned slaves and serfs.
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 No.490458>>490511

>>490447
>In the USSR. Cuba. Venezuela. And soon New York.
The food shortages in the early USSR came as a legacy from the previous system that neglected to mechanize agriculture. To be fair the USSR rushed mechanization of agriculture and did mess up at first. But they fixed it and from then on they did not have any food shortages until the 1990s when they got neo-liberal shock-doctrined.

Cuba only has shortages because of the US embargo, which it upholds out of pure spite. Venezuela suffers shortages because of US sanctions. They will probably get admitted into BRICS and that'll fix it.

New York is not going to have food-shortages because it might have a socdem Mayor. That is just ridiculousness.

>Free markets are self regulating because when one person gets too big and greedy there are a dozen smaller people waiting to swoop in with lower prices. This idea that if you just leave everyone alone then 1 person will somehow end up owning everything is nonsense with no evidence in reality.

>The reason we see so much wealth centralization in our current economy is because of external mechanisms (the state) stepping in to protect big corpos with bailouts and protective tariffs and legal immunity and regulations that smaller competitors can't afford to comply with. And sometimes the state straight up force citizens to buy corporate products. All of that is what leads the wealth centralization.
That 1 person that corners the market, will use his wealth to entrench a monopoly. Happens every-time. If there is no power that can enforce his monopoly, he'll use his wealth to create it. You can only beat monopoly formation by preventing anybody from centralizing so much wealth in the first place. Monopolies get destroyed when either A) the state gets used for monopoly busting, or B) there is significant technology change and the big monopoly can't adapt to it. if you invent a cheap fusion reaction ExonMobile, BP, Shell etc will be fucked, at least if you can dodge their hitmen.

>Private companies make money through voluntary trade. Violence is a cost. An expense. A risk.

There used to be lots of feudal lords that each had little private armies and they fought little wars all the time. States took away those armies, that's where the monopoly on violence idea was born. People wanted that because they hated those wars. Armed corpos would replicate the dynamic, and they would get disarmed by a big state just the same.
>Even the drug trade is only violent because of the cops trying to stop it not because of the drugs.
I'll give you that one, Police making war on drugs does make drug violence spike.

>Violence is only profitable when you can externalize the cost the way the state does e.g. buying weapons by stealing tax money from workers and enslaving people to fight in wars.

You get no argument from me here, but i want to add that most wars are fought on behalf of capitalists looking to expand. Some wars are security competitions between states.
The security competitions can be avoided by making good diplomacy. Which all the war-profiteers like weapons companies like to sabotage.

>The reason China is pulling ahead is because they have 'less regulations than the west. Elon recently had to buy an old abandoned factory in Memphis and fix it up because getting a government permit to build a new factory would have been significantly slower and more expensive. The more government fucks with the economy the worse the economy will be.

Keep in mind that in China every company above a certain size is required to have a CPC cadre that can influence investment. In China there is less regulation because they actively direct companies. And the reason they are faster at scaling is because Chinese industrial planning does parallel deployment. Meaning that if they build lots of data centers they also build lots of power-plants to go along with it. The US market system builds data-centers and then those drive up electricity prices and put to much load on the grid and only then they build new power-plants because they have to wait for the market signals. That system scales slower. By the way fixing up and re-using an old factory doesn't sound so bad. Anyway do you really think that MR Musk would take the deal where he gets less regulation but also has to follow directions from government appointed inserts in his company ?
While we're ad it the Chinese planning system clearly works, they bootstrapped a competitive microchip industry in less than 10 years.
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 No.490511>>490513

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>>490450
>Never in the history of civilization have markets existed without a state to set them up.
Learn to read
<This statement is trivially disproven. What do you think a black market is? What government is controlling the darknet drug markets? People in Somalia ran their own stock market without a government. You don't need government to have property rights, free trade and free association. In the long run government destroys all 3 of those things.

>Everywhere capitalism emerged it was through looting and coercion.

Capitalism is the realization that voluntary cooperation and trade is more profitable than theft.

>The first step was to enclose the common land in Europe and thereby throw subsistence farmers into the cities so they could perform wage labor.

Nobody forced farmers to move into the cities. They did it because they made more money by being involved with higher stages of production.

>>490451
>Chiquita does to banana workers
Who was funded by the CIA who is funded by the state stealing money from workers through taxes.

>>490454
>Wow, the US is going to impose sanctions and decades of economic warfare against NYC?
If they nationalize the grocery stores in New York then there will be food shortages and a black market in food will emerge. Screenshot this post.

>>490456
>Capitalism isn't "markets", it is private control of the means of production.
The whole concept of a market depends on the concept of private property otherwise what are you trading. Different ways of describing the same thing.

>That's not enforceable without a government or other means of violence.

Except all the examples I already cited. There doesn't need to be a monopoly on violence for people to respect and protect each other's property rights. Useless institutions like the state will always lie to make you think you need them.

>You can't have freedom under capitalism.

You can only have freedom under capitalism. Political freedom depends on economic freedom. If the state controls your property (the product of your labor) then voting is just kabuki theater.

>>490457
>capitalism is wage labor
Most people sell their labor for instant guaranteed wages because they don't have the creativity or risk appetite to be self employed or entrepreneurs. That's not really a property of capitalism it's just an implementation detail.

>>490458
>The food shortages in the early USSR came as a legacy from the previous system that neglected to mechanize agriculture.
That's not true. Food shortages came after key points such as when Lenin tried to collectivize farms in the early 1920s or when Stalin started persecuting kulaks 10 years later. Famines in China were again directly caused by communist policies aimed at ending private property and collectivizing the means of production.

>New York is not going to have food-shortages because it might have a socdem Mayor.

If he's serious about nationalizing food distribution then yes there will be food shortages.

>That is just ridiculousness

The government can barely deliver your mail on time and you want them to be in charge of your food. Good luck with that.

>That 1 person that corners the market, will use his wealth to entrench a monopoly.

What does that even mean? He's going to sell at low prices to drive out the competition? Then he won't make any money and will go broke. He will jack up prices after the competition is dead? Then new competition will pop up. Monopolies only exist in the market by exploiting government power i.e. by subverting the free market.

>Happens every-time.

Never happened. I know that's what you learned in school but it's lies.

<Private companies make money through voluntary trade.

>There used to be lots of feudal lords that each had little private armies and they fought little wars all the time.
Feudal lords don't make money through voluntary trade they forced slaves to work their land.

>States took away those armies, that's where the monopoly on violence idea was born.

We went from petty nobility fighting each other with small armies to total war carpet bombing civilian cities. That was a good trade. Why do I have to explain why the state sucks on a communist board.

>most wars are fought on behalf of capitalists looking to expand

And they can eat shit. The only reason that's possible is because the state taxes workers to pay for it. If they had to pay for their own bombs then it wouldn't be worth it.

>The US market system builds data-centers and then those drive up electricity prices and put to much load on the grid and only then they build new power-plants because they have to wait for the market signals

Google, Amazon, Microsoft have more than enough money and motivation and foresight to build their own power plants. They can't because the state won't let them. The politics at play is more about democracy vs dictatorship. Each president is only looking at 4 to 8 years a time. Any infrastructure project that takes more then a single term to complete is all cost and no benefit for the president so it doesn't even get started.

>do you really think that Mr Musk would take the deal where he gets less regulation but also has to follow directions from government appointed inserts in his company ?

Probably not.

>While we're at it the Chinese planning system clearly works, they bootstrapped a competitive microchip industry in less than 10 years.

Depends what you mean by "works". Central planning can get things done in very narrow fields. When Stalin wanted the biggest military in the world he got it. When the next guy wanted to be the first in space he got it. Meanwhile people literally starved to death in Ukraine. Central planning is good at providing the top 2 or 3 things the dictator wants. Not so good at providing the myriad of things the people need and want. Even then I'm not so sure that empty skyscrapers made out of tissue paper and high speed railways to nowhere is what Xi really wanted.
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 No.490513

>>490511
>Meanwhile people literally starved to death in Ukraine.
Notably, for the last time in history in a region with regular famines records for centuries.
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 No.490574>>490575

>>490456
>>490457
capitalism is the contradiction between bourgeois social relations and the forces of production
a capitalist economy is the general market of commodities produced for profit through privately ownership of the means of production
the capitalist mode of production is the specifically capitalist surplus extraction mechanism constituted by a wage contract formed between legally free and equal parties
(different modes of production can coexist within the same society within the constraints of the dominant mode of production)
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 No.490575>>490579

>>490574
You didn't address my critique of this mealy-mouthed imprecision at all. Did slavery and feudalism become not-slavery and not-feudalism when the state did the same thing private individuals did? Will you seriously call what the German Empire did in the 19th century not-capitalism because the state came in and arranged wage labor and production?
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 No.490579

>>490575
>You didn't address my critique of this mealy-mouthed imprecision at all
thats because i didnt intend to
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 No.490587

>>490446
Anarcho-capitalism is mostly a post-pubescent ideology

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