/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

>>491033
>The minimum wage increases ($15 now campaigns etc) started way before Sanders
Did they? He's been around a long time.

>minimum wage increases happen in many states without public pressure anyway.
Lol

I agree with everything in the sixth-seventh paragraphs though.

>there's probably only like a few hundred people in actual socialist parties nowadays.
This bit is flat out wrong. PSL alone got over 100k votes in 2024, the most of any ML party since Debs. Their membership is in the tens of thousands at least.

Anyway, nitpicking aside - no. The answer is no. The nicest thing I can say about Sanders is that people can learn something from him - to reject electoralism as a goal in-and-of-itself. At best it is useful for organizing, and perhaps for small local-level reforms, but these should be done with a party structure or political method which flatly rejects electoral collaboration with the DNC or GOP. They are evil parties representing an evil state.

>>491038
Yea, the $15! now thing, specifying $15 exactly was a Kshama Sawant thing that spread nationally through non-partisan on the ground organizations and Working Families people support. Sanders brought more attention to it after it started happening, but they started way before his stump speeches about that. It's arguably he helped accelerate their success, but that's basically where Sanders' influence ends. And yea, states will still raise the min wage without much public pressure usually, just not to that extent.

PSL votes don't mean membership, they are considered a fringe culty organization that monitors their members social media and show up at protests to try to assume leadership roles no one wants them to have, in between shouting at local legislatures that have little to nothing to do with Palestine, about Palestine.

> At best it is useful for organizing

Sanders didn't organize anything long term successfully and directly, he sheep-herded into the Clinton and Harris campaigns. That's not failed electoralism, that's sheepherding for centrist to right-wing parties.

The Bernie Sanders thing managed to funnel a whole lot of popular discontent back into the Democrats where it could be co-opted, controlled, and smothered. It accomplished its goal.

The one good outcome, which was hardly material in nature, was it managed to reduce a considerable amount of stigma from the word "socialism" in the US. This is why I originally supported his 2016 campaign and I think it was a success in that regard. Sadly a lot of my comrades bought into the whole cult of personality bullshit and were unable to move on after he served his purpose.

Seeing Sanders morph into a disgusting full-throated warmonger after 2020 has hopefully disabused more people of magical thinking about good politicians. When you reach the level of the federal government there is no politician who is not corruptible.

>>491039
>PSL votes don't mean membership,
Yeah, hence why I said their membership was in the tens of thousands and not one hundred thousand. If votes equaled membership then they'd have at least 100k members.

>they are considered a fringe culty organization
By wreckers, sure.

>that monitors their members social media
Twitteroid "he said she said" shit. I've heard a lot of rumors about them, most of it is either BS or shit which comes with being a party of that size.

>and show up at protests to try to assume leadership roles no one wants them to have,
They literally organize most of the protests here. I didn't see the fucking DSA show up to a protest for months, nor the Greens, it was mostly just PSL and PYM and various interfaith anti-genocide alliances most of the time. If "no one" wants them to have those leadership roles, then "someone" from another party should show up. The few times that the Greens, DSA, etc. have done so here, there was literally zero antagonism towards them from PSL members and organizers. I am fine with the PSL taking the role that they do, because nobody else is doing it in most places.

They also help with community outreach and disaster relief, even despite being a relatively small party overall.

>in between shouting at local legislatures that have little to nothing to do with Palestine, about Palestine.
I have yet to see them protest some group wrt the Palestinian genocide which wasn't in some way complicit. A lot of state-level wealth is invested in Israeli war bonds. If some local branch of the PSL somewhere yelled at someone who was in no way guilty, then I don't care; the vast majority of those the PSL pickets are thoroughly complicit, and they picket a lot all around the country. Whatever cherrypicked example you're thinking of is far from the average for the party.

>Sanders didn't organize anything long term successfully and directly, he sheep-herded into the Clinton and Harris campaigns. That's not failed electoralism, that's sheepherding for centrist to right-wing parties.
Yes, and I wasn't talking about Sanders when I said "it's useful for organizing." I was talking primarily about groups like the PSL.

>>491043
> Twitteroid "he said she said" shit. I've heard a lot of rumors about them, most of it is either BS or shit which comes with being a party of that size.

No one denied it, except to say that some were "reported" for stuff they liked on social media, which in turn led to their re-education meetings or expulsions.


Additionally PSL's cultiness is explicitly etched into their constitution which states "all members who disagree are publicly bound to defend and carry out party decisions".

This can work for small revolutionary organizations, but for *political parties seeking votes*, it ends up in monitoring people's social media, blacklisting members, and creating a top-down structure with no transparency or accountability.

>>491044
>No one denied it, except to say that some were "reported" for stuff they liked on social media, which in turn led to their re-education meetings or expulsions.
No one denied it - out of what sample exactly?
To be clear, I also don't care.

>Additionally PSL's cultiness is explicitly etched into their constitution which states "all members who disagree are publicly bound to defend and carry out party decisions".
The full text of this section (Decision Making Process, 4.1) from the 2022 constitution reads as follows:
After a thorough discussion in any branch or Party body, at the Party Congress, or at a national internal conference, decisions are arrived at by majority vote of all full members present, except when otherwise noted herein.

All members, including those who disagree, are duty bound to publicly defend and carry out these decisions.

In an uncontested election and for a non-controversial proposal, unanimous consent may be used. This means asking if there is any objection, and if there is not, deeming the nominees elected or the proposal passed.

Oh no, they have internal votes and then ask members to uphold them even if they disagree.
Honestly, that seems like a reasonable thing to ask for a political party trying to avoid sabotage and public squabbles. It would be a shitty requirement for membership in a dance club, though. I probably wouldn't want to do this, and I disagree with the PSL on a number of fine political points, but I can't say I don't respect this about them. In practice, this is how a large portion of the (much, much larger) mainstream political duopoly operates, even if it's shadier about it… I can't really fault the PSL, who are much less evil, for adopting tactics parallel to those used by the duopoly to keep members in check.

>This can work for small revolutionary organizations, but for *political parties seeking votes*,
The votes aren't the point.

>>491048
> ask members to uphold

that isn't what the text says, it says to defend and carry out party decisions

PSL's hardline rules about carrying out party orders have been shown to be over-zealously enforced even if written somewhat minimally. I

t means you’re never just a member of PSL, you’re being watched constantly by PSL as a member, and even your casual online habits get scrutinized.

Imagine trying to build a life, have friends, or participate in broader movements while knowing your own party is combing through your social media likes looking for “wrongthink.” For a tiny cadre org, maybe you can justify that level of paranoia. But for a party that claims to be mass-oriented? It’s radioactive. Normal people take one look at that and see cult vibes, not politics. That’s why PSL is capped below 3rd or 4th place in presidential elections: nobody wants to live under a microscope just to hand out papers and repeat talking points.

>>491053
How is that different?
I'm using "uphold" to mean literally the same thing. If you want to "uphold" democratically decided party decisions in some abstract, ethereal way which requires no personal compromise on your part, then what even are you offering to your party?

>Imagine trying to build a life, have friends, or participate in broader movements while knowing your own party is combing through your social media likes looking for “wrongthink.”
I have literally never heard about this until now. And I never got an answer for my
<No one denied it - out of what sample exactly?
question. I've seen a bunch of "scandalous" rumors thrown at this party specifically by twitterite dramaratis, and to date none of them have proven to hold any water. It comes across as the typical "Sanders supporters are misogynist" or "Labour has an anti-semitism problem" tier nonsense.

>Normal people take one look at that and see cult vibes, not politics.
I've been talking to folks in the PSL and about the PSL for over a year straight, and I've never even heard the specific stuff you're talking about. The idea that "normal people" are even seeing these rumors is laughable, although I'm sure that the drama people would like everyone to see the rumors.

>That’s why PSL is capped below 3rd or 4th place in presidential elections
The primary problem for the PSL has nothing to do with internal party policy, and everything to do with the way media institutions in the US deliberately ignore or slander parties outside of the two party system, and the way in which the electoral system is purposefully rigged to shut them out.

In 2024, the PSL got on a record number of state ballots, only for the DNC to aggressively sue states to try to take them off. In GA, that process of qualification meant the PSL collecting something like 17,000 signatures on a petition for Claudia De La Cruz to get on the ballot. The DNC's lawsuits in GA were initially rejected, but later allowed to take West and De La Cruz off the ballot after they had already cleared the multiple high hurdles for entry - only the ballots had already been printed, the machines had already been programmed, and I think early voting may even have already begun at that time, meaning that they were still on the ballot in GA, but votes for them quite literally were just not counted anyway.

On top of this, they're an ML party. They openly describe themselves as communists, socialists in the Marxist sense. If you know anything about American elections and electoral financing, you should understand why this idea that PSL is held back by some alleged internal party policy which only ultra-online obsessives have heard about is not credible.

>>491059
Last 5 paragraphs were for >>491054