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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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File: 1772308583351.jpg ( 298.57 KB , 1200x1200 , a3735177738_10.jpg )

 No.494673

Marxism is not about vibes, justice, or who feels bad. It is about material development. Any attempt to condemn American imperialism on moral grounds is liberal humanism and thus idealism. Despite the moral indignation that are likely to follow this post, let me explain…

As you all know, of all the things Karl Marx was, idealist he was not. Nor was he a moralist for he never gave moral judgements when discussing topics as fraught as juvenile prostitution, and would be incredulous as seeing the self-declared "marxists" of our times using the language of liberal moralisms when it comes to the Epstein saga. Sure, as a man of his time, he wasn't immune to contemporary prejudices as was his case with gay people that I don't need to mention.

Needless to say, unlike whig historians, for Marx history was neither moral nor immoral, but amoral.
Indeed, he described the democide of the Native Americans in the New World and the subsequent settling by European colonists and their African slaves, as well as British colonialism in India, and even slavery in Ancient Greece as progressive in that it advanced societies relative to their predecessors (in ancient Greece's case, from tribal society to city-states). For him, European colonialism was a double mission: Destructive but necessary in order to destroy material obstacles to historical development.

It is with this in mind that I can confidently say that Marx would deem modern American imperialism as a force of progress. If historical progress is defined by the destruction of pre-capitalist social relations and the creation of modern productive forces — then American imperialism is not only progressive, but the most progressive force in human history. After all, for Marx the capitalism of his time was a destructive force of progress that was necessary for communism arises through capitalism, not instead of it. Before objections begin, I'll bluntly state that I'm simply engaging in historical materialism to its conclusions and refuse to apply moral exceptions to the infantilised leftism that dominates the current milieu of the western left.

We may object to it on moral grounds, but if we are to be materialist, then we'd have to acknowledge the following facts with regards to American imperialism in this day and age:

First, American imperialism has functioned as an unparalleled mechanism for the destruction of pre-capitalist, semi-feudal, clerical, and patrimonial social relations, be it in Asia or Africa. Wherever it intervenes—whether through direct military occupation, regime change, or economic integration—it systematically undermines traditional forms of authority that obstruct the free movement of capital: tribal structures, religious legal orders, dynastic rule, and rent-based oligarchies. From a Marxist standpoint, these formations are not neutral cultural expressions but the very things that impede said societies from being integrated to the modern world and thus delays the process of proletarianisation.

Second, American imperialism universalizes bourgeois social relations at a scale previously unmatched. Wage labor, commodity production, contractual legality, and market dependence are not merely imposed; they are normalized. This process forcibly inserts entire regions into the global circuit of capital, dissolving local autarkies and subsistence economies that historically insulated ruling classes from proletarianization. As such, American imperialism is an accellerationist force for the very conditions Marx identified as prerequisites for class consciousness: urbanization, labor discipline, and the separation of producers from the means of production.

Third, the much-lamented cultural homogenization associated with American dominance is, in material terms, a rationalization of social life. The spread of secular compulsory education, mass media, standardized legal codes, and bureaucratic governance weakens the grip of what Marx would have recognized as ideological superstructures tied to archaic modes of production. Key example would be the efforts of the US-supported Pahlavi regime at undermining the power of the Islamic landowners who made up the core base of the Islamic revolution of 1979, a reactionary force that campists today support solely out of relative anti-western sentiment in spite of the Islamic Republic's archaic mode of production and imperialist tendencies in the Fertile Crescent and the levant. That these processes are experienced as alien or violent does not negate their historical function; Marx never required that progress be experienced as pleasant.

Fourth, it is precisely under American-led capitalist integration that previously marginalized groups are drawn into social production as juridical subjects. Women’s participation in wage labor, the commodification of domestic labor, the legal abstraction of the individual citizen, and the formal extension of rights to racial and sexual minorities are not moral achievements floating above the material base. They are functional requirements of advanced capitalism, which cannot tolerate rigid exclusion without sacrificing efficiency. Acknowledging it =/= celebrating it, but recognises that capitalism dissolves traditional hierarchies even as it reproduces exploitation in new forms.

Fifth, critiques that frame American imperialism as uniquely regressive often rely on an implicit romanticism toward “non-Western” or “anti-imperialist” formations. Yet many of these alternatives preserve pre-capitalist relations under the guise of cultural authenticity or national sovereignty (e.g., Iran, Palestine), or worst reproduce the same capitalist contradictions (e.g., Russia, China). Marx was explicit that such formations, however resistant to foreign domination, could still represent historical stagnation.

Opposition to imperialism, when detached from an analysis of productive forces, risks becoming reactionary in content even when radical in appearance. Indeed, those contemporaries that opposed slavery during antiquity, settler colonialism in the western hemisphere in the early modern period, and British colonialism in India would essentially be reactionary. And that's a fact, not a moral judgement.

None of this implies that American imperialism should be supported, only that it must be understood correctly. To denounce it as an absolute evil is to abandon historical materialism in favor of moral spectacle. The task of Marxist analysis is not to assign blame, but to trace motion: how forces collide, how contradictions sharpen, and how new social relations are born out of violence and upheaval.

If communism is to emerge from capitalism rather than leap over it, then it follows—however uncomfortable—that the most aggressive agents of capitalist expansion are also the most efficient destroyers of the old world. History, as Marx understood it, has never waited for permission.
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 No.494676

>>494673
Marx opposed English imperialism in Ireland.

The grotesque misrepresentation of Marx as purely an amoral edgelord simpleton would be embarrassing if I thought it had even the smallest trace of sincerity. Even if you took Marx's writings as literal divinely inspired, infallible gospel at all times, you would run into contradictions which reveal obvious inconsistencies and biases - because he was a man who wrote books, and he occasionally had views which were imperfect or which were colored deeply by his own personal POV.

The idea that American imperialism is "progressive" is complete nonsense based on a a "progressive" metric which cannot possibly be measured or compared. It ends up just being a comparison of which culture you like more, and most people will always just pick their own. The anti-imperialist movement of the 20th century was the force of progress - it threw off old chains, and gave people autonomy which they did not previously have. Reinstating the chains is not progress.

It's impossible to make any absolute argument that Maoism or Dengism or Islamic Republicanism are concepts somehow dwelling behind bourgeois imperialism - no, in fact, these systems of government advanced away from the brutality of European colonialism. Meanwhile, the direction of American imperialism and European "democracy" is moving about as deep into obscurantism and superstition and oligarchy as it possibly could, at astonishing speed - you might as well clamor for the return Nazi German imperialism, it was about as progressive as present day Zionist American imperialism.
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 No.494690

>>494676

I don’t know if you’re a tankie or not, but your reply is proof of what I’m talking about, namely how campists, due to their class background, often collapse their arguments into liberal moralisms, the very thing they accuse liberals of doing.

For starters, I’m not applying simply what Marx wrote into current events. All I’m doing is applying historical materialism as supported by orthodox marxist scholars into the present history.

That Marx may or may have not opposed English imperialism in Ireland doesn’t negate both the fact that he ultimately saw European colonialism and Neolithic slavery as progressive in purely materialist terms, nor that it can be consistently argued that English imperialism from the days of the Tudors to 1922 was historically progressive for it did away with the old Gaelic system of lordship and integrated Ireland into the coming age of the Industrial Revolution and globalism by the early modern period.

Furthermore, American imperialism today continues to be a force of material progress much like capitalism was in the days of Adam Smith, especially in the third world where archaic modes of production based on agrarians predominate in the absence of American imperialism. Indeed, American imperialism has done more to proletarianise the people of the third world as well as integrate them into global market dynamics, moreso than any nominally communist country has ever done. The integration of minorities into juridical society, women into the labor force, and the dismantlement of the old elites are actual material results.

And while Maoism was an actual progressive force as you note, where you diverge with the facts is in saying that the same goes for Islamic republicanism in Iran and Dengism in China.

What you’ve done there is a far more grotesque application of Marxist theory that you accuse me of doing, considering how dengism and Jiang Zemin have actually heralded the legitimisation of the return of the bourgeoisie into Chinese society, and the results today speak for themselves be it with China’s trend towards further economic liberalisation, the presence of stock markets, billionaires, de facto land-lordism, and the acceptance of marginalism among Chinese mainstream economists in spite of the Cambridge capital controversy undermining marginalism. Do I need to mention China’s imperialist policies in Africa and Asia, as well as the fact that the PRC isn’t even an opponent of the unipolar order, as much as part of it. Why else would it trade with Israel to this day? It’s not pragmatism, it’s just a capitalist entity acting on its own material interests, namely by doing trade with Israel for its tech, much like what the west does.

As for the Islamic revolution of Iran, it has turned a secular autocratic monarchy into a reactionary theocracy that upholds the power of the Islamist landlords and rural landowners that made up the core of the 1979 revolution in order to preserve their powers against Reza Shah Pahlavi’s white revolution that, if continued, would have brought Iran into the modern age of industrial production rather than having its industry ossified as it is the case in the present.

As for capitalist Russia, need I say more?

So by supporting reactionary and bourgeois entities, you are proving the shallowness of campist arguments which even Lenin went on to critique as blanquist infantilism, for the current anti-imperialist milieu relies as much on vibes and aesthetics as the alt-right does when it comes to laundering former psyops as “trad and Based” on the basis of a few superficial aspects whilst ignoring the larger picture. Ironically, this is what campist and tankie arguments often devolve to: Liberla humanist Moralisms that most communists would see as the idealism that it is.

As for Israel: No matter how much you feel about it, it’s effectively a force of progress as well by dismantling the old archaic mode of production Hamas supports, itself a force of reaction. This would be comprehensible to you, my dear interlocutor, if you were more well-read on historical materialism.

From a materialist standpoint, much like how the United States was founded upon the corpses of millions of redskins, thousands of European settlers, and the tens of millions of bisons that once freely roamed the great prairies, whilst modern Africa was founded upon the corpses of millions of Africans and hundreds of white men and the countless animals that used to by ubiquitous in the open lands, the same goes for west Asia: The new Middle East will be founded upon the corpses of tens of millions of Arabs, the thousands of Jews, and the remnants of the wildlife that once characterised the Fertile Crescent of the Bible, the Torah, and the Quran.

However we fee about it, history marches on. Neither Marx nor history care about our moralisms, the very moralisms that have unfortunately contaminated much of leftist analyses.
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 No.494691

>>494690
>>494673

It is worth clarifying that none of the above requires one to support American imperialism in a political or ethical sense. Support and analysis are separate categories. The question is not whether imperialism is desirable, but whether it functions as a historically progressive force in the strictly material sense outlined above.
If one maintains that imperialism is always and everywhere regressive regardless of its effects on productive forces, social relations, and class composition, then one is no longer operating within historical materialism but within an ethical framework external to it. Conversely, if one accepts that capitalism historically dissolves pre-capitalist relations as a condition for its own supersession, then it follows that the most expansive forms of capitalist integration perform this function most efficiently.
To deny this is not to be “more radical,” but to quietly reintroduce moral exceptionalism into Marxist analysis — precisely the move historical materialism was developed to overcome.
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 No.494693

I actually thought this thread was going to be critiquing these "anti-imperialist" retards who use "socialism" as a synonym for "opposes US hegemony".
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 No.494694

>>494693

It is not? OP excoriates campists and tankies for bullshitting actually socialists into supporting "multipolarism" just because Russia and China per formatively oppose the USA, despite both being capitalists, with China itself being deeply enmeshed into the unipolar world order both economically and politically.
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 No.494697

>>494694
No it seems the OP is more interested in justifying capitalist imperialism. Which is actually not a progressive force at all: its goal is to keep 3rd world production centers underdeveloped in order to maximize labor exploitation.
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 No.494698

>>494690
>Reza Shah Pahlavi’s white revolution that, if continued, would have brought Iran into the modern age of industrial production rather than having its industry ossified as it is the case in the present.
What is your basis for this prediction? Under the Islamic Republic, Iran actually has become one of the world's leading manufacturers of drones and Iran is otherwise well-known for having an enormous corps of engineering talent. This in spite of decades of attempts to block Iran's access to outside resources through economic sanctions. Conversely, under many vassal regimes in history the puppeteering power has kept economies purposely undeveloped in order to exploit cheap labor.
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 No.494699

>>494698

That shows how little you know about Iranian modern history, for the very weapons manufacturing and educated human capital you praise theocratic Iran for is built on the back of Pahlavi's white reforms which not only increased literacy in the country, but also kickstarted a minor Industrial Revolution that today's Iran continues to rely on to this day. Matter of fact, economic growth under Reza Shah approached close to 10%, while today growth has been stagnant even factoring for western sanctions.

If the 1979 revolution never occurred, then Iran would be wealthier than today, and with a more proletarianised populace as well. This are just facts you can easily read on any book on Iranian history, not an endorsement for current attempts by the American empire at re-instituting the bourgeois monarchy.

Just because Iran today sits on the opposite end of the USA doesn't mean that I, a historical materialist, will make a moral exception for that bourgeois theocracy in west Asia solely because it's besieged today. Moralisms and shitlib idealism shouldn't seep into material analysis.
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 No.494700

>>494699
>If the 1979 revolution never occurred, then Iran would be wealthier than today
On the one hand there would probably be less economic sanctions and Western attacks on them to contend with over the decades. On the other hand their oil sovereignty would still be in the hands of British Petroleum.

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