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File: 1663456633520.png (97.9 KB, 1599x1066, Flag_of_the_Miner's_Divisi….png)

 No.457563[Last 50 Posts]

Last one is full and the worst thread on leftychan must be contained.

In recent news: Ukies done a successful counteroffensive in Izium, Z gang now in shambles. Biden promises even more money for Ukraine. Putin meets Xi, Erdogan, Modi and others at the SCO summit.


Pro-Russia sources:
https://nitter.net/RWApodcast
https://nitter.net/mdfzeh
https://nitter.net/AZmilitary1
https://nitter.net/wargonzoo
https://nitter.net/TheHumanFund5
https://t.me/intelslava
https://t.me/asbmil
https://t.me/vorposte

Pro-Ukraine sources:
Everywhere else
>>

 No.469098

>>469095
>Information is physical, it's a measurable quantity

Information as intended mathematically by Claude Shannon et al. has nothing to do with the common use of the term.

> The mere fact that censorship exists, inverts the burden of proof.

So, everything we have no proof of does exists? Nice way to become Alex Jones
>>

 No.469099

>>469098
Shannon's paper referred to a mathematical model to be used generally, rather than for any particular medium. It was intended to refer in principle to mathematical constructs that could be rendered as physical, since the main purpose of this model was to filter out noise in actual physical signals. To do that, the physical signal has to be abstracted and reconstructed. That is what digitalization does, or one way to do it - a sound picked up is translated into digital bits and you can reconstruct audio or build synthetic sounds by algorithm. None of the synth sounds are based on a "real" noise, until this abstract information is given physical form by output from a machine, which abides certain principles.

Information theory is an interesting development theoretically, but often misunderstood. Dialectical thinking has difficulty processing its meaning because it is philosophically opposed to such a rendering. It's why Marxism went mad - they couldn't cope with the ontology that came about in the late 20th century. After a point it became clear they had no interest in correcting their philosophical errors and were doing this on purpose, because they didn't believe in what they were preaching. But that's a whole other story and not as simple as it seems.

Information properly speaking is an abstraction of something that is not yet "knowledge" or meaningful, but has been disambiguated from raw data. The raw data can be physical, a stream of fictitious data we made up or wrote down somewhere, or whatever medium is capable of conveying data. In short, it is a way in which material things can be transformed into abstractions which become ideas in the realm of knowledge. For this to make sense though moves past anything Shannon said and requires a belief of what "knowledge" means - and I chose to describe knowledge not as a "thing" but a process, and a very particular one, which is itself rooted in something material or physical, and makes abstraction and conscious experience possible. It is not a thing which is ubiquitous to the universe or taken for granted, but it is the only way we in subjective experience are capable of interfacing with a world, and the way we integrate the parts of ourselves in the first place to be "us" or have a mind to say anything. Knowledge then is not contingent on any particular information being processed or exhibited, but particular things happening to make information processing possible for some "knowing entity". I.e., this is about getting into the black box that composes and comprehends the messages that are communicated, which is where information theory takes off. It's where cybernetics becomes a big thing, as well as systems theory. Shannon was looking at the signal and how to filter noise and left the knowledge part to others, since that couldn't have an easy answer, and there was already a theory of computation and lots of philosophy regarding knowledge which could never be resolved by science or mathematics.

So basically, disinformation is an actual thing and practiced by everyone. It's why we have military-speak normalized, and the way we speak transformed considerably over the past century. The way we talk now is very stilted and artificial, and this was intended beforehand. Even the way we spoke in the 1980s is noticeably different and more coherent or whole than the way we are trained to speak in the 2010s. Language did not stand still at all - far from it, I have seen the way people comport themselves change in ways that have accelerated and diversified, such that people of different classes effectively do not share a common language and cannot really see each other as equals. This is a far cry from a century ago, where intellectual elites in high culture and the common worker and farmer were not too far removed from each other. Elites knew what the yokwls with funny accents were saying. The yokels knew elites were full of shit and they fucking hated intellectuals and capitalists and this whole thing lording over them, and the poor figured out various methods of de-bullshitting. It was the only way a handful of them could rise in the institutions of the past century, so far as that was possible. You don't survive in this world if you believe the masters are actually your friends. That placed a strong pressure on changing the way people spoke, and this would proceed every generation with new initiatives, culture wars, and influencers.
>>

 No.469100

>>469095
The people who are "fake honest" are some of the most shameless liars, who always move away from any complex analysis or non-trivial statement. This has been programmed in a lot of people who are out of the know, who have been hoodwinked so much and alienated from society. The claims made resonate with people who want the world to be approachable, "A is A" in the Randian sense, while claiming "A is not A" and using Hegelian woo woo to make anything into anything. It's one path to reality control.

Anyway, it's pretty clear the war is not meant to be "won", but meant to sacrifice the residuum and get them killed. Why else would they recruit American bluehairs dumb and desperate enough to die for eugenics and the rule of global corporations? They don't need actual soldiers beyond a minimum level of competence. They need to get the people selected to die to go get themselves killed. It's the same on the Russian side. Needless to say, morale on the Russian side is total shit, and their country is being run into the ground by Putin and friends. The greatest losers are the commies in Ukraine who are getting their shit kicked in, and anyone who wanted there to be a shred of decency in that pedoporn-ridden hellstate that is Ukraine.
>>

 No.469101

>>469098
>Information as intended mathematically by Claude Shannon et al. has nothing to do with the common use of the term.
If that's true than we should adopt Shannon's understanding of information for common use. Why should we have a muddled understanding of information in common use ? There's so much information technology now, people might as well have some conceptual grasp about it.

>So, everything we have no proof of does exists?
No the solution is to get rid of censorship, keep in mind that the goal is to find out stuff about reality. And you can't do that if there's people who are able to remove evidence.

The point here is that censorship is a narrative control mechanism, and that's not compatible with the pursuit of truth and objectivity. You invert the burden of evidence in order to destroy the narrative control mechanism. If you do that every criticism of the powers that censor has to be considered true. Censoring evidence in order to avoid blame now backfires, because on balance you get more blame than before you censored.

Once the censoring ceases, we go back to the pursuit of reality on the basis of evidence based claims, because that's when it becomes possible again. Understand you can't find out the truth while there's people able to fuck with your perception of reality. You have to neutralize that first.

If you care about the truth, objective reality, about the enlightenment values, you have to configure the "system" so that it eats everything that fucks with it. If you don't we go back to the dark ages. The accusation of "disinformation" rings a little bit like an accusation of heresy.

All that said the case about Russel Bentley having video documentation about residential areas in the Donbass that were destroyed by Ukrainian fascist paramilitary bombardment from 2014 onward that is objectively true, once the censorship is overcome, that's going to remain true. I've seen a bunch of those videos, and if you keep denying that this happened, you create absolute certainty for me that you can't be trusted.

Since the enlightenment days the nature of information systems has changed information used to be scarce and today it's mass produced. Those changes have to be addressed too, but it can't be a ministry of truth that's run by the liberals. At best the liberals tend towards half-truths, that's not enough, that won't work. The MLs in the Soviet Union did better than the liberals, they probably reached three-quarter-truths, but that still wasn't good enough and they still ended up screwing up their biology research for over a decade.

Look what the liberals did during the epidemic, when they tried to censor the anti-vaxers they also interfered with genuine scientists who made scientifically rigorous criticisms about the vaccines. There were a bunch of scientists that warned about the vaccines being too leaky and not able to fully stop the spread of infections, as well as the greater than usual risks for complications. At first they were shut-up as "agents of disinformation" and then they were proven correct. This is inexcusable you cannot fuck with the scientific process. If this happens again, we'll have to rethink what effective scientific institutions need to be, maybe we need to pair up researchers with commando units than can clear such obstacles.
>>

 No.469102

>>469099
>So basically, disinformation is an actual thing and practiced by everyone. It's why we have military-speak normalized
Nope "disinformation" is still Bullshit and the military-speak meaning just means deception.
We can just say "deception", and not have to use that linguistic abomination of ruling-class-speak.
>>

 No.469103

>>469100
The correct law of identity is
A ≈ A
A is approximately A

If you make a computer do a comparison for equality it has to shift stuff around into various memory registers, and once you do that it's no longer exactly the same, each side of the equality has a different memory address. You have to weaken the definition from exact equality to approximate equality or else no information processing system could ever satisfy it.

>Muh bothe-side-ism on the Ukrowar.
Nope, curb your liberalism. The Russians tried way harder to find a diplomatic solution. The Neocons wouldn't even take Ukrainian Nato membership off the table, anybody with half a brain understands that if the US gets to plonk down military bases in Ukraine that they'll have the Russian federation at gun-point. That would threaten the ability of the Russian state to reproduce it's existence, that always leads to war. They knew that too, they wanted the war to make money for the military industrial complex.
>>

 No.469105

>>469103
How do you say, in all possible views of the world, that "A is approximately A"? In formal logic, there is no "approximately" - you have two distinct things and no excluded middle. That is necessary for logic to proceed in the way we understand it. "Approximately" is a weasel word without a very particular calculus to suggest how we arrive at meaningful statements in symbolic expressions.

Logic does not say anything about the "fundamental world" - logic is implied because there is a world to speak of, which we do through symbolic expression. We can write down and understand those symbols and comprehend their meaning, but the symbols in of themselves are not meaningful. For logic to exist, we are making a few claims about the world and anything in it generally, rather than suggesting logic is what makes the universe "go" by some ineffable might of the concept. It is impossible to speak of logic unless there is a metaphysical model to suggest what things "are" in the first place, and how we arrive at the conception of things. If we just say propositions are what they are, then we are suggesting essential forms that popped into existence for reasons unknown, or we suggest a just-so story to assert the existence of forms. If that is the case, then there would be no "approximately" without suggesting what throws off the forms, and suggesting certain things about the universe metaphysically. If the idea is that matter corrupts a "pure form" universe, that is a claim you are making that is really specious. The derivation of logic did not arise because we declared it so, but because we have some concept of what things are that allows us to discern what is and isn't a "thing". We use logic not to define the universe, but to make sense of a universe, if we approach the world materialistically. You can suggest an idealist ontology but that ontology has to make sense of a world that came before us, which is why idealist cosmologies invoke something like God or Heaven as a regulatory force. When you look at the stories of religion, they are at heart metaphors for understandings that are similar to the materialist view - the gods are typically metaphors for either the natural world, human will and social consciousness, or something where those two things meet. To make an idealist cosmology stick, it has to be more rigorous than a series of just-so stories issued in rapid succession, or else there are internal inconsistencies that break the cosmology.

Anyway, it's funny you bring up computers. My specialty is CS so I know very well how a computer's machine language and assembly language works. You're making a series of essentialist claims about information that have nothing to do with information or what a computer actually does. It's not information science or philosophy, but a lot of gobbledegook because your brain has been fried, and you lack standards of comparison. Read, uygha, read.

Anyway, this kind of thinking is what you need to keep believing that the Russians are totally at war with NAFO pedophile lords for great justice. Russia has already made it clear that they can't do shit about Kiev or anything other than the region they want to break off.

I think the people puppeting the war believe they can contain the waste zone to Ukraine and get another Iraq moneypit, this time paid for with Russian blood and benefitting the Krauts more. American business, what's left of it, isn't getting shit out of Ukraine. Nor does any real American interest benefit. Globally there is a bigger plan of course, but there is basically no reason for the US to do anything in the region unless this is about making European partners happy. The Euros have wanted a war to justify EU unification and get their inner Nazi on. They've always wanted to have a greater share in the US-EU relationship, seeing as they have more population, industry, money, their intellectual base hasn't been systematically cannibalized the way American knowledge was destroyed. If I'm going to be a nationalist, America is way too fucked to think they're going to benefit from any imperial war. So far as any American interest is represented by its leaders, the most they can claim is to avoid outright conquest, or they think they will stop WW3. If you think the hardline Satanic elements of the European Right are afraid of WW3, you don't know those people. They've always been about that and dragging the world down with them, because of their failed Kraut Empire project. But, these things aren't about nationalism or regional interests in the end. There are a lot of shits in the US who have always wanted to tear it down and make it nothing but plantations, and they have America more than any external enemy.

I just read the tea leaves but I see this entire debacle blowing up in everyone's face, and all that will result is a lot of pointless death before, out of necessity, it is stopped and a more controlled death begins. The only people who benefit are a bunch of Satanic retards who don't have any actual plan except to make people suffer. They then blame one nation or another to stoke stupid wars, and pump up essentialism everywhere to push their stupid religion. It's insane.
Unfortunately they pretty much destroyed America from within and made us the worst possible version of us we could be, and so many of you fucks encouraged it.
>>

 No.469106

>>469105
>How do you say, in all possible views of the world, that "A is approximately A"? In formal logic, there is no "approximately" - you have two distinct things and no excluded middle. That is necessary for logic to proceed in the way we understand it. "Approximately" is a weasel word without a very particular calculus to suggest how we arrive at meaningful statements in symbolic expressions.

I don't know what to say to you, in the computer world this has been solved thusly: The mathematicians complained that the computers were giving false results and then the people who wrote compiler software just patched it so that the computer spits out the result the mathematicians wanted. If you code a self-comparison instruction, most compilers just ignore that and replace it with an instruction that just outputs a predetermined result that's stored in a look-up-table, and they don't actually do a comparison.

If you aren't willing to accept this little cheat, then yes, you have to abandon the law of identity.
>>

 No.469107

File: 1683449225989.jpg (81.92 KB, 674x690, RusselBentleyVK.jpg)

>>469100
>The people who are "fake honest" are some of the most shameless liars
Fake-honest is a good moniker for those that censor evidence and then demand to see evidence.
You know when they censored Russel Bentley videos from Youtube where you could see the devastation of residential areas from artillery and morter shelling by the state sanctioned Ukrainian fascist groups and are now pretending that it didn't happen.

It's more than shameless to try to cover up the murder of ~14k people.
>>

 No.469108

File: 1683450230834.webm (11.8 MB, 640x360, too_many_crows.webm)

Here is a music video that uses shots from the Donbass war after 2014 where one can also see a little bit of the destruction
>>

 No.469109

File: 1683450773458.jpg (57.54 KB, 782x806, donbass war 2014-2018 deah….jpg)

>>469094
There was an UN Report in 2018 that confirmed that by that time the death-toll was already 13k and 30k wounded
https://www.unian.info/war/10416549-donbas-war-death-toll-rises-up-to-nearly-13-000-un.html
>>

 No.469110

File: 1683455645187.jpg (58.42 KB, 800x883, Gonzalo Lira arested.jpg)

Gonzalo Lira got arrested for wrong-speak by the Ukrainian SBU.
https://rumble.com/v2mf1cs--nazi-ukraine-jails-us-commentator-gonzalo-lira-for-speaking-uncomfortable-.html
>>

 No.469112

File: 1683463595622.pdf (8.4 MB, 67x118, Cybernetics_or_Communicati….pdf)

>>469106
What part of "logic does not move the universe like a hobgoblin" do you not understand? Logic is something we read from the universe. The universe itself did not "operate on logic" in some way that made it above reality. That is how formal logic could be derived.

In cybernetic speak - negative feedback loops are created, from sources we do not at first identify as anything, to stabilize anything into something that allows for rational thought. That, in effect, is recreating how we established formal logic in materialist analysis. The law of identity is preceded by the law of the excluded middle - that is, we are able to envision the concept of "between A and B" and conclude that something between A and B is incompatible with formal logic. If you ask questions about what "A" and "B" are, you are not asking a question about logic, but a question about metaphysics and how we envision the world generally. From the law of the excluded middle you would be able to separate A from B, and then that A is A and B is B. It works similarly in other ways logic was derived from a materialist view of the world.

In the computer, this is explicit - the computer is possible because it was possible to regulate energy flows to produce logic gates, not because logic had an ineffable power to "make the computer go". The computer in real life is a machine like any other, even if you imagined the machine as a human carrying out the instructions by rote.

The invocation of "fuzzy logic" is only sensical with some qualifiers about what is referenced. That is, the Hegelian claim about identity is not a literal claim or a scientific claim. It is a political claim. It is a philosophy of political minds, making certain claims about how humans think and express themselves, the nature of God and society, which are directed towards particular aims. You wouldn't use "internal contradicitons" to speak of analyzing something scientifically. You use it to bullshit and make political stances, and this is the point. They do not want to think, they want to project force, and there is no rule of logic that tells people they are not allowed to do this - that is, to be deliberately dishonest about the material world. They do so with caveats and awareness that they are doing this, and this is not "subconscious" or something done accidentally. To do this reality switching effectively requires an ability to know exactly what you are doing, and does not allow for someone to genuinely believe in two contradictory ideas. The bullshitters are always aware of when they bullshit, and why they bullshit. Always.
>>

 No.469113

File: 1683464684529.jpg (23.54 KB, 492x447, ukraine trident nazi tride….jpg)

https://vid.puffyan.us/watch?v=nQtC_-3HlI4

Here's a video where a Russian summit delegate snatches a Ukrainian flag and than gets punched by the Ukrainian summit delegate. The Russian delegate probably was triggered because the Ukrainian trident symbol has some historical links to the 3rd Reich in WW2
>>

 No.469116

>>469112
new thread
https://leftychan.net/leftypol/res/469115.html
>>

 No.469134

File: 1683510003301.webm (3.91 MB, 1280x720, 1683459581671110.webm)

>>

 No.469135

>>469113
>he just happened to have a meltdown right then over the coat of arms of a major country that has existed for decades because the nazis also used a trident once
what massive cope. next you'll be saying china is HATO because it has stars on its flag just like america
>>

 No.469136

>>469135
You can't possibly attempt to deny the Nazi-connection, because the Bandera-wing in Ukraine they're not shy about that, they openly celebrate it.
>>

 No.469137

Biden's administrative team tries to lower the expectations of Ukraine counter-offensive.

https://invidious.snopyta.org/watch?v=HslhUbyFATE
>>

 No.469143

>>469137
Just two more months!
>>

 No.469151

>>469027
ziggas grasping at straws so much they now champion anarchists lol
>>

 No.469153

>>469110
Should have left when he was given that chance. What a loser, lol.
>>

 No.469158

>>469153
Gonzalo Lira is basically a political prisoner, he'll get out once the current Ukrainian government looses power. That could be relatively soon, because the next offensive isn't looking too good.

He could get some martyrdom political capital out of that, which might help with a media career. While i agree with you that he should have fled Ukraine, this might not be as bad for him as it looks.
>>

 No.469159

>>469151
>commies bad!
>socialists bad!
>anarchists bad!
you're not even trying to hide any more, nazi
>>

 No.469160

>>469158
>the next offensive isn't looking too good
the counter-offensive was never real, it was a Russian disinformation campaign.
>>

 No.469162

>>469159
>Invade a country and slaughter civilians to prop up your failing oligarchy.
>You're the Nazi!
Based retard.
>>

 No.469163

>>469162
isn't that other country is exactly the same ?
>>

 No.469164

Zelensk is now mask-off about the war being a neoliberal project to privatise Ukraine:

https://www.president.gov.ua/en/news/pislya-zavershennya-vijni-amerikanskij-biznes-mozhe-stati-lo-80561

> Thanks to the courage of our soldiers holding back the occupiers, and thanks to the leadership of the United States of America, which has consolidated the world in defense of freedom, we see how to win this battle.

> …

> This is why we so need your support now. Here, in Ukraine, we are defending not only independence and not only the international order.

> Here in Ukraine, we are defending everything that made you, in particular, who you are.

> We are defending freedom and property

> …

> It is already clear that this will be the largest economic project of our time in Europe. It is obvious that American business can become the locomotive that will once again push forward global economic growth.

> We have already managed to attract attention and have cooperation with such giants of the international financial and investment world as Black Rock, J.P. Morgan and Goldman Sachs. Such American brands as Starlink or Westinghouse have already become part of our, Ukrainian, way. Your brilliant defense systems – such as HIMARS or Bradleys – are already uniting our history of freedom with your enterprises. We are waiting for Patriots. We are looking closely at Abrams.

> Thousands of such examples are possible!

> And everyone can become a big business by working with Ukraine. In all sectors – from weapons and defense to construction, from communications to agriculture, from transport to IT, from banks to medicine.

> I believe that freedom must always win. And, I invite you to work with us right now.

> Thanks to all American people – from leaders to every American! God bless our countries and our heroes!
>>

 No.469165

>>469151
You don't have to agree with Anarchism to find Chomsky's criticism about US empire cromulent. You know it's possible to agree on some things and disagree on others.
>>

 No.469166

>>469160
Not sure what you are talking about.

Ukraine is planning a ramshackle offensive. Most of their troops are battered, many only got the bare minimum of military combat training, and they have to fight with an assortment of mismatched cold-war leftover weapons that their NATO bosses scraped together. This offensive will be thrown against a well trained, fully supplied and deeply entrenched Russian defensive lines, that are numerically superior and vastly outgun them. The only thing the Ukrainian proxy force has going for it is that they get good battlefield-intelligence from their US-Nato masters.

The Ukrainians them selves really don't want to do the offensive, they are constantly demanding it be postponed. It seems that the only reason that this is going forward is because the west demands a return on investment.

The only people that talk-up the expectations for this offensive are those that are claiming that it will somehow spook the Russians, and they will be able to win without a fight. That doesn't seem like a plausible battle plan at all.

Lets be generous and assume that the Ukrainian offensive does manage to make some gains, they have nothing to follow it up with, so that'll be temporary. Even if the Russians pull back and yield some ground, the Ukrainian forces will still get chewed up in the Russian meetgrinder, and then the Russians could resume their advance with much less resistance. And it's very likely that the Ukrainian government will fall apart in the aftermath.

The Neocon logic is perhaps that they want to take as much territory as they can before they are forced to negotiate a ceasefire with the Russians. They think that they trade Ukrainian forces for territory that the imperial bourgeoisie can buy for a bargain. The Russian negotiation logic however will be different they will offer Ukraine concessions proportionally to it's strength, and throwing all those troops into one last offensive will make Ukraine weaker, and their position for negotiations will be worse.
>>

 No.469167

>>469166
Going to save this to my cope compilation. Can't wait to see you make up a new cope when your defense falls apart.
>>

 No.469168

>>469158
Gonzalo is a faggot propagandist that was sharing troop movements online. Hope he gets put in prison with all the pidorashka he simps over.
>>

 No.469169

>>469167
>Gonzalo is a faggot propagandist that was sharing troop movements online. Hope he gets put in prison
I doubt Gonzalo Lira can be counted as a propagandist for sharing his opinion online, but even if you did, locking up all the propagandists means locking up virtually all the mainstream media as well. Imprisoning people for wrong-say is just stupid, Ukraine looks like a despotic regime to all the onlookers. And since the current regime in Ukraine is on shaky grounds, they risk that this kind of stuff will be done to them once the tables turn.

I can't imagine that Gonzalo Lira would have access to strategic information like Ukrainian troop movements. What makes you think that he could find out stuff that the Russians can't. Unless you are saying he's a superspy, but then again he'd have know about the SBU tac-team that arrested him.
>>

 No.469170

replied to the wrong post
>>469169 was meant for >>469168
>>

 No.469171

>>469164
>Zelensk is now mask-off about the war being a neoliberal project to privatise Ukraine:
Yeah that rings true.

Maybe we should just ditch all the political labels and just refer to those political entities by their corporate masters.
<We have already managed to attract attention and have cooperation with such giants of the international financial and investment world as Black Rock, J.P. Morgan and Goldman Sachs. Such American brands as Starlink or Westinghouse have already become part of our, Ukrainian, way. Your brilliant defense systems – such as HIMARS or Bradleys – are already uniting our history of freedom with your enterprises. We are waiting for Patriots. We are looking closely at Abrams.
Like the forces of Black Rock, J.P. Morgan, Goldman Sachs etc are engaged in the battle for Ukraine. Or something like that. Zelensky could wear the same type of clothing as professional athletes with all the brand-logos, and maybe a small wearable computer screen that shows much they bribed him.
>>

 No.469172

>>469169
He is a propagandist, and you're disingenuously denying that. And it's called taking pictures and uploading them to telegram, you fucking idiot.
>>

 No.469173

>>469162
>invading a country makes you a nazi
liberal understanding of history and politics 🤡

r/worldnews is much more suited for your level of discourse, I mean that sincerely. you're not happy here, we're not happy when you're here. do us all a favour and fuck off.
>>

 No.469174

>>469172
>He is a propagandist, and you're disingenuously denying that.
I've seen some of his videos, he rants about stuff into a webcam. Some of the things he says are true, but sometimes he says retarded shit where he makes wild speculations about weaponized artificial earthquakes and the likes. You're off your rocker if you want to hang this guy for mildly schizo boomer rants.

Also if you want to make a principle out of imprisoning propagandists, you're going to lock up a huge section of the media landscape, including everybody that works for the Ukrainian state media and most of western mainstream media. You're nuts.

>And it's called taking pictures and uploading them to telegram, you fucking idiot.
I don't follow, he posted pictures on his social media and that's bad why ?
Did he snap some pictures of military trucks driving by his house or something ?

A. Everybody does that, people post everything that's a little out of the ordinary online, even Ukrainian soldiers post pictures from their deployments.
B. He's not "relaying information to the enemy", the Russians have hundreds of spy-sats and thousands of surveillance drones, that give them reliable information about Ukrainian troop movements, why would they ever bother with social media posts that could be deceptions.

I have to admit i haven't looked at his telegram yet, but this sounds like you're making up excuses for persecuting this guy.
>>

 No.469176

File: 1683647319278.mp4 (27.68 MB, 1280x720, Stealth_20230509_174203.mp4)

Clare Daly absolutely and unrevocably BTFOs NAFOids and libs to the shadow realm. This is it, this is the argument you cannot defeat, and all your screeching will not change that fact.

seethe, cope, and so on
>>

 No.469177

>>469174
>I don't follow, he posted pictures on his social media and that's bad why ?
Did he snap some pictures of military trucks driving by his house or something ?
It's illegal to take pics of troop movements in Ukraine. You would know that if you weren't trying to defend a faggot like fucking Coach Redpill.
>>

 No.469178

>>469176
Ah, yes. Totally not the corrupt Russia simp.
>In late January 2022, Daly described the Russian troop build up on the Ukrainian border as being "clearly defensive" and believed there is "no evidence that Russia has any desire to invade Ukraine, it would be of no benefit to them".
Lol, dumb bitch.
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 No.469179

File: 1683650738288.mp4 (29.51 MB, 1280x720, rapidsave.com_civ_pov_its_….mp4)

>>469176
no sound. better version
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 No.469180

File: 1683654118862.jpg (107.09 KB, 986x910, unequal aplicatin of the ….jpg)

>>469177
>It's illegal to take pics of troop movements in Ukraine.
You just assert that. However i doubt that's actually true because i've seen like thousands of pictures with Ukrainian military stuff in it. Those Ukrainians who did take these picture weren't arrested by a commando unit.

If we give you the benefit of doubt and assume that you are right about the legal technicality. It would still not yield legitimate cause to arrest Gonzalo Lira because it would be unequal application of the law.

What you are doing here is attempting to manufacture consent for a which-hunt. Most legal concepts that exist today arose in the enlightenment period and were very consciously designed in opposition to which-hunting. That means that if you try to create legalistic excuses to persecute somebody in that manor, you'll fail, it'll always be easy to show that you are not upholding legal principles. While bourgeois law is very flawed, the bourgeoisie did have some progressive ideas when they had to compete against feudal lords.
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 No.469181

>>469180
>You just assert that. However i doubt that's actually true
>Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy has signed a law restricting the dissemination of military information during the current state of emergency, with violators facing up to 12 years in prison.
>According to the document, filming the movements of Ukrainian military personnel, sites of shelling, street names, transport stops, shops, factories, and other civilian and military facilities is now prohibited.
All you had to do was google. You're a retarded faggot.
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 No.469182

>>469180
And it's not a witch hunt. If you're advocating for the invasion of the country you reside in, you deserve to get fucked. Kill yourself.
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 No.469183

>>469182
>If you're advocating for the invasion of the country you reside in, you deserve to get fucked.
yeah, FUCK the Afghan Communist Party, just FUCK THOSE ASSHOLES.

LONG LIVE AL-QAEDA AND THEIR AMERICAN MASTERS!

you know what?

FUCK THE CAMBODIAN COMMUNIST PARTY. Long Live Pol Pot and the Khem Rouge (also CIA puppets)!

it's so funny how these NAFO libs come in here and think that Christian morality = communism. lol fucking redditors and /pol/ tourists smfh
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 No.469184

>>469178
You are trying to interfere with the democratic process of speaking truth to power by smearing Clare Daly.

If you wish to counter her criticisms, the only valid response is specifically addressing her criticisms.

Attacking her character or insinuating she is conspiring with an enemy, that is entirely illegitimate, and it means that you concede to every single point she makes.

Lets face it she's right 3k-4k Euros is an insane racket, there's no way an artillery shell cost that much to make.
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 No.469185

File: 1683657698881.jpg (431.1 KB, 643x500, 20230509_133837.jpg)

>>469183
>Hurr durr buh wat about [unrelated event]
Coach brownpoo deserves it, and I hope he gets the maximum sentence.
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 No.469186

>>469184
>Clare Daly.
You mean the woman that consistently defends dictatorships and uses public funds for her personal use? She's a clown, a bad one at that.
>You show her being corrupt, that means you think she's right
That's not gow logic works, dipshit. Her corruption is well-documented.
>In December 2019, the London Times reported Daly had appointed her former husband, Michael Murphy, as a European Parliamentary Assistant. The rules in the European Parliament prohibit the employment of "spouses or stable non-marital partners". Daly previously employed the son of fellow Independents4Change MEP Mick Wallace. The Times described Daly as "one of the busiest Irish members in the European parliament this term".[40] in September 2020 a former parliamentary assistant of Daly's, who had worked for her for over seven years, came forth to accuse her of mistreatment and of having "no respect for workers' rights".[41]
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 No.469187

>>469181
>All you had to do was google.
I doubt that google is already smart enough to replace lawyers, legal stuff never means what it overtly says.

>>469182
>And it's not a witch hunt.
But it is, it counts as politically motivated witch hunt, if you apply the law different to one person than another. The fact that other Ukrainians can post pictures of military stuff without consequences makes it illegitimate to persecute Gonzalo Lira for the same action. Give up you lost.

>If you're advocating for the invasion of the country you reside in, you deserve to get fucked.
I'm guessing the chances are high you accusing Gonzalo Lira of something he didn't do, but lets analyze this on the basis of whether it can be a general principle.

In WW2 there were resistance fighters who fought against the Nazis and they did advocate for the invasion by the allied forces. And when the Nazis caught resistance fighters, they "got fucked" right into extermination camps. Did the resistance fighters really deserve that fate ? I think not, so this doesn't work as a general principle.
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 No.469188

>>469187
>I doubt that google is already smart enough to replace lawyers, legal stuff never means what it overtly says.
Oh, it's really not that complicated. What he did is illegal and he is being arrested. There won't be a great trial that frees him. He bet on the wring horse, and now he gets to rot in a Ukrainian prison. Top kek.
>But it is, it counts as politically motivated witch hunt, if you apply the law different to one person than another.
Can you name somebody doing the same as this retard not being arrested? Of course, you can't. You're stupid and didn't think this through. Typical vatnik.
>In WW2 there were resistance fighters who fought against the Nazis and they did advocate for the invasion by the allied forces.
>Hurr what about
They had already been invaded. They were trying to reverse that. Gorgonzola was in a sovereign nation advocating for its destruction by a foreign nation. Not only that, but he shared troop movements with them. He's as good as fucked. Get over it. Nothing is going to bring your fake rich dating coach back.
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 No.469189

>>469186
You attack here character and attempt to smear here reputation but you don't counter her arguments.

Therefore You loose the debate, you concede all points to Clare Daly. You concede that she's right about her "war is a racket" speech.

You have to address the criticisms she makes, you cannot attempt to focus the attention on her person, you cannot attempt to direct attention away from the criticism she makes.
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 No.469191

>>469189
She's a dumb bitch that denied the obvious, has engaged in nepotism, and consistently sides with dictatorships. This isn't an attack in her character. These are the facts. Her poor character is merely an inescapable conclusion of her actions.
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 No.469192

>>469189
Her criticism is that arms dealers stand to make money in a war, and why doesn't Europe force Ukraine to surrender. What kind of chucklefuck thinks this is a good criticism? Where is her criticism of Russia? Oh, that's right, she voted against or present in every resolution condemning Russia. How odd. It's almost like she's a Russia simp.
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 No.469193

>>469188
I already explained to you that you cannot claim legal justice if you don't apply the law to everybody equally, you cannot arrest Gonzalo Lira for taking pictures because the same law isn't being applied to others. The internet is filled with pictures where the Ukrainians have photographed Ukrainian military.

>There won't be a great trial that frees him.
Oh that might be the case, but that doesn't change the fact that he's being subjected to political persecution and not justice. It's not legally legitimate.

>Gorgonzola was in a sovereign nation
You can't really say that Ukraine was a sovereign nation tho, the US did regime change it after-all. The US installed a vassle regime in Kyev. So you're analogy doesn't really hold up.

>He's as good as fucked. Get over it.
He's a political prisoner of the Bandera faction, he'll probably get released once the current regime in Ukraine looses power.
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 No.469194

File: 1683660446702.png (87.68 KB, 807x354, adhom.png)

>>469191
Do you have brain worms ?
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 No.469195

>>469193
>I already explained to you that you cannot claim legal justice if you don't apply the law to everybody equally, you cannot arrest Gonzalo Lira for taking pictures because the same law isn't being applied to others. The internet is filled with pictures where the Ukrainians have photographed Ukrainian military.
Showing troop movements? What about propagandising for the enemy? Show your sources. Simple pictures are not illegal.
>Oh that might be the case, but that doesn't change the fact that he's being subjected to political persecution and not justice
He's getting what he deserves, though I'd put him away for many more years.
>You can't really say that Ukraine was a sovereign nation tho
You can, and this is cope.
>He's a political prisoner of the Bandera faction, he'll probably get released once the current regime in Ukraine looses power.
You need to slow down with that copium. Did you enjoy your little parade? You got to see one T-34. How nice.
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 No.469196

>>469194
You don't know what ad hominem means. Your mother should have drank less. I told you why she's a dumb bitch. Go back and read it again, subhuman.
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 No.469197

>>469192
>Her criticism is that arms dealers stand to make money in a war
War profiteering is bad, because if people can profit off wars they are incentivized to instigate more wars.

>and why doesn't Europe force Ukraine to surrender.
Idealist nonsense.
If Europe had "forced" Ukraine to accept the Minsk agreements or the Istanbul cease-fire, Ukraine would not have lost territory in the Donbass, there wouldn't have been so many dead people and destruction in Ukraine.
The course of action that was taken resulted in Ukrainians being sacrificed for the benefit of mega corporations and imperial finance capital. They also got sacrificed for the geo-political ambitions of the neocons. The survival of the Ukrainian state is now uncertain.

The stance you uphold clearly had a much worse outcome for Ukrainians than the position that Clare Daly took. What she argued for would have resulted in a minor ego-bruise for Ukrainian national pride. What you uphold resulted in a big slaughter. Her position is morally superior to yours in every conceivable way.

>Where is her criticism of Russia?
The Neocons made it impossible to criticize Russia, because they enforced a black and white political divide. Everybody that doesn't fully tow their political line, is branded as a traitor. All the legitimate criticism that one might have about Russia can't be uttered until the political arena returns to a normal state of affairs that allows for a plurality of positions and nuanced stances.

>Oh, that's right, she voted against or present in every resolution condemning Russia.
Wait you can see what politicians vote on ? That's not very democratic, it shouldn't be possible to see because that might enable coercion. And it would also benefit corruption, because those that give bribes can confirm that they get what they bribed for.

As far as the 'resolution condemning Russia' goes it depends what that symbolizes. If that's part of the consent manufacturing for renewing the cold-war against Russia, then it's correct to oppose that. Regardless of what you think about Russia, it's always better to have detente. The peace dividend is better than the cost of arms-racing.
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 No.469198

>>469197
>War profiteering is bad, because if people can profit off wars they are incentivized to instigate more wars
Damn. Maybe Russia should withdraw from Ukraine so the war can end. Maybe Russia shouldn't have started a war.
>If Europe had "forced" Ukraine to accept the Minsk agreements or the Istanbul cease-fire, Ukraine would not have lost territory in the Donbass, there wouldn't have been so many dead people and destruction in Ukraine.
Ukraine is not going to give up land to Russia, and Europe is going to fund them until they get it back. Get over it. You are engaging in idealism.
>The stance you uphold clearly had a much worse outcome for Ukrainians than the position that Clare Daly took. What she argued for would have resulted in a minor ego-bruise for Ukrainian national pride
Ukrainians do not want to see more Bucha like events which the Russians engage in all occupied territories. Russia should take the hit for the war it started.
>As far as the 'resolution condemning Russia' goes it depends what that symbolizes. If that's part of the consent manufacturing for renewing the cold-war against Russia, then it's correct to oppose that. Regardless of what you think about Russia, it's always better to have detente. The peace dividend is better than the cost of arms-racing.
Blah, blah, blah. You say nothing with a lot of words. Russia is a shithole and will remain a shithole. Can't wait until the next diaster for you to kill yourself.
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 No.469199

File: 1683665280737.jpg (46.09 KB, 680x940, Z(3).jpg)

>>>>469198
>Maybe Russia should withdraw from Ukraine so the war can end.
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 No.469200

>>469195
>Showing troop movements?
Ukrainian state media does that hourly.
>What about propagandising for the enemy?
Gonzalo Lira appears to me as somebody that's sharing his opinion by ranting into a webcam. Of course i can't know for sure, but even if he was part of some kind of media operation that would at most warrant kicking him out of Ukraine. Even that feels like it's already an overreach, considering that this would be abused and innocent people would be victimized by this, while it's also mostly ineffective against foreign agents.

"The enemy" is a matter of perspective. I think the enemy are the warmongers and the good guys are those that advocate for the positions that will have as result a diplomatic resolution that minimizes bloodshed.

>He's getting what he deserves
he's being jailed for shit-posting on the internet, nobody deserves that. This is political persecution.

>You need to slow down with that
I don't buy the neocon narrative, the CIA definitely fucked with the Ukrainian state, the Euromaidan protests were used as cover for regime change. But even if you don't agree with that historical view, the Ukrainian state currently is bankrolled by the US and Europe, that completely rules out sovereignty. The Ukrainian state doesn't have a state budget if Washington or Brussels turns off the money-tap.

>Did you enjoy your little parade? You got to see one T-34
What random gibberish is this ? Are you a bot ?
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 No.469201

>>469199
>Nooo, Russia can't give up its imperial ambitions, you have to fuck over the people resisting them
No. Enjoy more NATO in your future and a justification for American foreign policy for years to come.
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 No.469202

>>469196
>tells others they don't know what ad hominem is, despite using an ad hominem and not knowing what it is
>then calls others subhuman
You're a moron, but I will explain to you what an ad hominem is anyway, because I know your ignorance is crippling and you're not going to look it up yourself.

If the argument is "EU is only supporting Ukraine to transfer wealth from the working class to the bourgeoisie in the form of military and other forms of aid", you cannot say "Clare Daly said it and you cannot trust her, because she's corrupt because [evidence]", because you are not saying the argument is wrong due to faulty premises/conclusions, you're saying the argument is invalid based on who is making the argument. Hence the name "ad hominem" which is Latin for "to [against] the (hu)man", because you're arguing against the person, and not the argument, as slimey worms like you are wont to do.
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 No.469203

File: 1683666329896.jpg (65.88 KB, 1280x720, TlVXzFg (1).jpg)

>>469200
>Ukrainian state media does that hourly
Damn, if it's state media, they probably have some sort of censorship process to not leak intelligence. Did Coach dickpills work for a legitimate organization like this? No? I guess he's fucked, then.
>Gonzalo Lira appears to me as somebody that's sharing his opinion by ranting into a webcam.
Yeah, and his opinion was that Russia had the right to invade, denial of Russian war crimes, and the showing of Ukrainian troops in an active war zone. Too bad.
>he's being jailed for shit-posting on the internet, nobody deserves that. This is political persecution
Kek, picrel
>Ukrainian state currently is bankrolled by the US and Europe, that completely rules out sovereignty.
>Sovereignty is when you don't receive any help from abroad
Jesus, you're stupid.
>What random gibberish is this ? Are you a bot ?
>Vatnik pretending he doesn't know about the cucked parade.
Kek.
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 No.469204

>>469202
I'm saying she is not a good faith actor and I addressed her so-called argument elsewhere. I also showed evidence why she is not a good faith actor, snd the fact is that she is irrelevant anyway. All she did was seethe in public about EU not abandoning Ukraine, because that might make some companies money. Kek, you're stupid.
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 No.469205

File: 1683668429334.png (42.76 KB, 482x446, tgrass.png)

>>469198
This is a proxy war between NATO and Russia that is being fought in Ukraine. Your position is that Russia is morally obligated to allow the US to cross their security red-lines. You know full well that in reality the Russian state will never do that, and that this stance will lead to war. You created an ideological fantasy land that allows you to put all the blame on Russia while you advocate for things that are not conducive to peace.

>Ukraine is not going to give up land to Russia
Well that kinda happened already.
>Europe is going to fund them until they get it back.
The west is out of weapons that it can send to Ukraine, and it lacks the industrial base to generate the quantity of weapons it would take to supply Ukraine with enough to challenge the Russian military machine. Europe is self-inflicting economic harm to it-self by bowing to the US imperial designs that the neocons cooked up. This war is lost and the only reason it hasn't already been abandoned is because of the war-profiteering money-grab and political optics. This basically brings us back to Clare Daly's point about the war racket in >>469179

The US will loose interest in this soon, and when nobody else steps up with real-politics, China will be the one that brokers the peace deal with involvement by India, Brazil and perhaps others.

>Ukrainians do not want to see more Bucha like events
The NATO propaganda narrative says the Russians did Bucha, but the available evidence makes it more likely that those murders were done by the Azov battalion motivated by revenge against civilians that cooperated with the Russian military. It has to be said that it is not conclusive.

>Blah, blah, blah psychotic rant.
Maybe you ought to log off and touch grass.
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 No.469206

>>469205
>Your position is that Russia is morally obligated to allow the US to cross their security red-lines.
Ukraine does not belong to Russia. They can make their own security arrangements. If Russia wanted a friendly Ukraine, maybe they shouldn't have acted like retards for the past 30 years. Until you get this through your skull, which, granted, doesn't contain much, you will not understand this war. It's a war Russia could have avoided.
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 No.469207

>>469205
>The NATO propaganda narrative says the Russians did Bucha
They're on video, retard. Nobody is going to believe you over their own eyes. Kill yourself.
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 No.469210

Good recent talk by Ray McGovern (with input from Ted Postol) on the surrounding of Russia by nuclear-capable missiles that can hit Moscow in 5-8 minutes. If the US acted justifiably when Kruschev placed nuclear missiles in Cuba that could hit targets in the US with 10 minutes to respond, then Russia has every justification to act the same when the US does similar to them today.

https://inv.vern.cc/watch?v=ter-Bg0npqg
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 No.469211

File: 1683675662185.png (25.17 KB, 300x300, glowofficer.png)

>>469192
>>469191
>>469186
>>469178
Working hard?
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 No.469212

>>469205
>The NATO propaganda narrative says the Russians did Bucha, but the available evidence makes it more likely that those murders were done by the Azov battalion
Not quite, it was a branch of the Ukrainian military police called the "safari unit", and both the mayor of Bucha and an official in the unit have all but confirmed what they did in official statements.
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 No.469213

>>469207
Goodness, you're working extremely hard indeed. I guess your presumption is that nobody would ever ask to see your non-existent video, and when forced to provide it you'll instead provide us with "video" of Ukrainians after the event pointing to bodies and making assertions, which people will then state is hardly the evidence you've claimed to have, and at which point you will deflect to some other kind of innuendo-based "evidence".
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 No.469215

>>469182
BASED
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 No.469216

>>469207
BASED again
>>469213
here's the video, vatnik
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 No.469217

>>469216
>you'll instead provide us with "video" of Ukrainians after the event pointing to bodies and making assertions
Well there's certainly the same old bullshit in this footage you've posted. In addition to that they repeatedly use footage of Russian soldiers saying things or gesturing with a loud narrator overlaid describing what's happening, as if we're supposed take at face value the their description of the otherwise confusing events happening on video. Keep in mind the NYT is the same despicable rag notorious for spreading many other war lies to support American hegemony. Also very suspicious that some of this video footage hasn't been made public in the roughly 8 months since the Bucha retreat and the release of their video report.

So, are you ready to explain why bodies were in a state of impossibly fresh decomposition in photos and videos taken over a week after the Russian retreat, why the victims frequently had white bands indicating neutral collaboration with the Russian occupiers, and why many had Russian military rations with them on or near their bodies?
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 No.469218

>>469217
We saw it happen. Now you're coping about supposed forensic science, as if you were a forensics expert, yet have found no body of such experts willing to back up your assertions. This isn't up for debate. Now kindly go back to your .ogre site, so you can pretend that all is well and that Russia dindu nuffin.
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 No.469219

>>469218
Who's "we"? I haven't seen anything demonstrating the things you've been asserting yet.
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 No.469220

>>469212
>>469205
Actually it seems the "Safari" unit in fact did have veterans from the Azov regiment in it.
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 No.469223

>>469201
>Russian imperial ambitions
UPDOOTED MY GOOD SIR!! It makes perfect sense that the largest and most resource rich country on the planet invaded Ukraine for land and resources. Russia, being the world's largest exporter of wheat, also invaded Ukraine for its wheat. Those retarded vatniks don't understand logic.
>Enjoy more NATO in your future
You say it so triumphantly, as if you personally benefit from NATO expansion. Are you the anon who owns US defense stocks?

>>469204
>I'm saying she is not a good faith actor
Yes, that is an ad hominem fallacy. You're very close to getting it. Keep at it, champ.

>and I addressed her so-called argument elsewhere.
Where? You liberals love doing this: When pressed on an issue, you say that you have already addressed it. But you didn't, this isn't reddit, my response to you won't be buried by downvotes.

>I also showed evidence why she is not a good faith actor,
Yes, when it was pointed out you used an ad hominem, you doubled down. You seem to be misunderstanding the core concept of the fallacy. A fallacy doesn't mean you don't have evidence or you're lying, you can have a valid argument that is a fallacy. Her not being a "good faith actor" has nothing to do with the argument she said.

Imagine the goodest faith actor in your mind, now imagine that person saying the argument, what is your response now?

>snd the fact is that she is irrelevant anyway.
Another ad hominem.

>All she did was seethe in public about EU not abandoning Ukraine, because that might make some companies money.
Now you're addressing the argument. You see, socialists believe that the profit motive causes a lot of negative outcomes. War profiteering, doubly so, because working class men and women are being sent to die for someone else's bottom line. You see the profit as a side-effect of the moral crusade against evil Russia, while we are telling you it is the opposite – the moral crusade was invented as a justification for their goal of making a lot of money. And not just the arms industry, but construction companies and anyone else who can make money by plundering Ukraine.

>Kek, you're stupid.
Look up what "irony" means. And no, it has nothing to do with Marvel.
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 No.469224

>>469219
Then watch the video, retard.
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 No.469225

>>469223
>Yes, that is an ad hominem fallacy. You're very close to getting it. Keep at it, champ.
No. And ad hominem fallacy would be:
>She is wrong because she's a stupid bitch.
My post went like:
>She is a stupid bitch because of her past actions and statements, and her current argument is stupid because if aid is given someone makes money, regardless of type of aid.
Her argument is that we shouldn't do anything because someone might make money. It's s dumb argument, and you're a moron that doesn't understand logic.
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 No.469226

>>469223
>You see, socialists believe that the profit motive causes a lot of negative outcomes.
Dead vatniks is a positive outcome. If Rusoid faggots want it to end, they can leave Ukraine. And her argument was previously addressed in: >>469192
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 No.469227

>>469225
No. And ad hominem fallacy would be:
>She is wrong because she's a stupid bitch.
My post went like:
>She is a stupid bitch because of her past actions and statements
Just stop. You obviously don't get it. It doesn't matter whether you have reasons and evidence to think she's a stupid bitch, her being a stupid bitch doesn't affect the argument she said. Whether she's a stupid bitch or not has NO bearing on whether the argument/statement is true or not.

>, and her current argument is stupid because if aid is given someone makes money, regardless of type of aid.
This is the first time you wrote something like that. Your first attempt at the argument, and you cocked it up. You really think her argument is about giving and receiving aid? LOL

If you are older than 16yo, kill yourself. I mean that. There's no fixing your kind of stupid.
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 No.469228

>>469226
>And her argument was previously addressed in:
That's not her argument, retard. Holy fuck you NAFOids are fucking STUPID. Like talking to a 10yo child who thinks they know everything and can even stand on the same intellectual footing as an adult. It is painfully obvious that you lack the capacity for abstract reasoning and metacognition, yet you keep insulting others and pretending like what you're saying are self-evident truths.
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 No.469229

>>469228
That is her argument. It's just stupid as fuck so you're pretending it's deeper than that. The war will end when Russians realize all they have to do is go back to their shithole of a country. They've been given terms for peace.
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 No.469230

>>469227
>her being a stupid bitch doesn't affect the argument she said.
I'm less likely to listen to a dumb cunt after the 20th time she spouts retarded bullshit, which she did again. There's no reason to listen to retards when they consistently say stupid shit. Not every argument needs to be weighed. Just as I don't take flat earthers seriously, so too I fo not take Russia cocksuckers seriously. There is only one way out of this, and it is through Russian withdrawal of all Ukrainian territory.
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 No.469231

>>469227
>You really think her argument is about giving and receiving aid?
Okay, let's take it through the logical steps. She's against giving weapons to Ukraine and expanding munitions production because she wants peace. Now the question is on what terms? She doesn't say. Well, we know Russia will accept nothing less than annexation of Ukrainian territory, and Ukraine is unwilling to acquiesce. So our options are to support Ukrainian defense through weapons aid, or to cut off aid and let the Russians beat them. The choice is obvious. We should not only send the aid we promised, we should send even more, until every last Russian soldier has been withdrawn from Ukraine or is lying dead in the mud.
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 No.469232

>>469210
This is actually a pretty good vid
thanks for sharing
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 No.469233

<"Once the shadow cast by Washington become smaller, the dawn of peace becomes bigger".

https://invidious.snopyta.org/watch?v=oSSDSWquumU
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 No.469234

>>469227
I admire you tenacity, trying to teach that guy basic reasoning skills
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 No.469235

>>469231
>She's against giving weapons to Ukraine and expanding munitions production because she wants peace.
Not at all. She's saying it is dumb to send money to Ukraine when we have problems at home that need fixing. Giving money to Ukraine only prolongs the war. A prolonged war only benefits arms manufacturers. A prolonged war does not help Ukraine, the longer it goes on, the more Ukrainians die and more of Ukraine is destroyed. She mentions peace because the aim of diplomacy is to prevent/resolve conflict and achieve peace, yet Western diplomats have taken peace off the negotiating table, they only want the war to continue. Isn't that a bit fucked up?
>So our options are to support Ukrainian defense through weapons aid, or to cut off aid and let the Russians beat them.
You mean beat them quickly instead of slowly. There is no way Ukraine "wins" this conflict, all the aid is doing is making it take longwr and cost more Ukrainian lives.
>>469229
>war will end when Russians realize all they have to do is go back to their shithole of a country.
You're forgetting the war is waged on Ukrainian soil, it is worse for Ukraine the longer it goes on.
>They've been given terms for peace.
Only in your liberal Topsy Turvy world can the losing side dictate terms.
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 No.469238

>>469203
>Jesus, you're stupid.
Their war effort is entirely dependent on western intelligence and logistics, and if those are ever cut off they're doomed despite Russian incompetence. No one with a dependent relationship like that is sovereign in any meaningful sense.
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 No.469239

>>469235
>Not at all. She's saying it is dumb to send money to Ukraine when we have problems at home that need fixing.
So no one should ever try to help someone abroad unless everything at home is perfect? Are you fucking retarded or just pretending?
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 No.469240

>>469235
>You mean beat them quickly instead of slowly. There is no way Ukraine "wins" this conflict, all the aid is doing is making it take longwr and cost more Ukrainian lives.
Is that why Russia still can't take any ground, even after their supposed Spring offensive? Is that why they still haven't taken Bakhmut? Russia is going to lose this war. It's obvious.
>You're forgetting the war is waged on Ukrainian soil, it is worse for Ukraine the longer it goes on.
Agreed, therefore we should send more weapons without restraint.
>Only in your liberal Topsy Turvy world can the losing side dictate terms.
No, which is why I don't think Russia should dictate shit. You seem to think they've won already, but the war is barely a year old.
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 No.469241

>>469238
Damn, almost like we should really help them. They seem to need our help a lot. Thanks for voicing support for more aid.
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 No.469242

>>469241
Why? What is gained other than allowing Ukraine to be raped by western agribusiness and extractive industry and the financial powers that owns them.
This war is the fault of the west for instigating a coup Ukraine's government, expanding NATO, and pointlessly threatening Russia over the last 15 or so years.
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 No.469243

>>469242
Russia shouldn't have started this war. Ukraine is forever going to be against Russia, and the US and Europe will keep funding then because it's the cheapest way to kill Russians and destroy a geopolitical rival. I hope we send more weapons.
>>

 No.469244

File: 1683765838601.jpg (62.99 KB, 495x700, 512.jpg)

>>469243
who cares? the pig-ape hybrids killing each other is always a good thing
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 No.469245

>>469244
Nah, just Russians. I hope they simply surrender so they can be deported back to their shithole county. Maybe this event will teach them a lesson and they can depose their own corrupt government.
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 No.469246

File: 1683768889095.png (404.1 KB, 600x359, 1680575976987.png)

>>469245
just the opposite for me hope the russian take ukraine and get onto poland therebye maximizing the pig slaughtering potential
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 No.469255

>>469243
Russia can't be faulted for defending their security. America should not have couped Ukraine, that was the catalyst for everything from 2014 to the present.
Wasting taxpayers money to support imperialism and making an enemy instead of ally out of Russia is the most evil and retarded possible path to take and yet its what the elite who's narrative you've been cucked by have chosen.

>>469245
>Maybe this event will teach them a lesson and they can depose their own corrupt government.
Ukraine's government is equally if not more corrupt since they don't have Putin to contain their oligarchs.
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 No.469256

File: 1683792910214.jpg (104.35 KB, 1500x1500, Z(4).jpg)

>>469245
>Maybe this event will teach them a lesson and they can depose their own corrupt government.
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 No.469257

>>469241
>Damn, almost like we should really help them.
NATO send lots of weapons and then more Ukrainians get send to the killing fields. That's not really helping. And you know Zelensky has sold out all of Ukraine to the big bourgeoisie to get those weapons, so the Ukrainian proles that are send to their deaths aren't really fighting for "their country" because it's not theirs anymore.
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 No.469261

>>469243
>Russia shouldn't have started this war.
They didn't tho

The US neocons started the proxy war in Ukraine in 2014 when they allied them selves with Ukrainian fascists, I'm sorry "right sector" , to do a color revolution regime change. The Russians tried for 8 years to end that war via the diplomatic route.

The other reason this war is happening is because the Russians are trying to prevent the installation of NATO bases in Ukraine. The Russians did try to join NATO in 2000, so you can hardly accuse them of not seeking a peaceful solution for that either.

Lastly the Neocons probably provoked this war on purpose because they wanted to use the Ukrainians as cannon fodder to weaken Russia. They sought to create conflict that separated Russo-Germany economic relations (in particular energy) And they wanted this war as an excuse for the sanctions war. Which did end up hurting the west more than it did Russia.

So in the end this war mostly benefited imperial finance, the arms industry, the US-based fracking gas suppliers and Indian based oil-resellers. The most harm was inflicted on Ukrainians, global-south food security and the EU economy.

Future Historians are probably going to demarcate this war as the point in time where the end of the US empire became irreversible.
The major reasons are
- it created a dramatic diplomatic rift between the west and the rest of the world,
- the sanctions-weapon backfired and doomed the dollar-hegemony,
- after Ukraine getting destroyed and the EU having it's economy wrecked, the US looks a like dangerous ally for countries in the "undecided camp".

The original argument that was made about the Ukrainian state entirely depending on western money and supplies was about illuminating the fact that the Ukrainian state no longer has much control. The west has the power to force Ukrainians on the negotiation table anytime it wants.
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 No.469262

>>469255
>Russia can't be faulted for defending their security. America should not have couped Ukraine,
Ukraine does not belong to Russia and there was no coup. You saying it over and iver won't make it true. Russians should have stayed in Russia.
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 No.469263

>>469255
>Ukraine's government is equally if not more corrupt
Was. This is what the revolution was about. It's just like Russians to have the reverse of American exceptionalism. No, pidor, not every country is just like your shithole. Your shithole is especially bad. Ukrainians no longer want to live like you.
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 No.469264

>>469257
>NATO send lots of weapons and then more Ukrainians get send to the killing fields. That's not really helping.
Has taken back mist territory since the 2022 invasion and is killing a disproportionate number of orcs, who are now running so low on equipment, they have to resort to shit from the 50's. I'm going to go ahead and say it helped.
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 No.469265

>>469261
>They didn't tho
They did. No amount of cope posting is going to change that. This is worse than confederate fags claiming firing on FT Sumter wasn't an act of aggression.
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 No.469266

>>469245
>Sacrificing the Ukrainians to teach the Russians a lesson
I wonder what lesson the Russians took from this ?

- They seem to have redirected their trade relations,
- what ever animosities that existed between Russian and China since the Sino-Soviet split have been patched up,
- they invested into global diplomatic ties with the non-western world,
- invested more into domestic tech-production as well as weapons-production
- and of course alternative international finance.

I'm guesses the "lesson" you wanted to "teach" the Russians was that they had to subordinate them selves more to US-empire. Well the small amount of subordination that did exist prior, is now gone entirely.
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 No.469267

>>469264
>Has taken back mist territory since the 2022 invasion
pure delusion. they took back Kharkov oblast and Kherson city. Now Russia is making gains.
>b-but if if they win slowly, that means they've lost!
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 No.469268

>>469266
The lesson is don't invade your neighbors. Ukrainians can stop fighting any time they like. They have chosen to keep fighting, and they will continue to do so. You can cope all you want. Nobody is coming to save Russia from their own mess.
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 No.469269

File: 1683808077154.jpg (453.49 KB, 3000x1690, ukraine-maps-promo-1645801….jpg)

>>469267
>pure delusion
And Kyiv was just a feint too.
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 No.469270

File: 1683808553695.jpg (66.83 KB, 736x668, ork girl with pig head.jpg)

>>469264
>Nato support has taken back territory
Ukraine has now
- less territory,
- less population,
- less military power
- and less economic power
than if they had just implemented the Minsk2 agreement.

They are worse off in every metric, this is not helping

>killing a disproportionate number of orcs, who are now running so low on equipment
It is fitting that you would display your disconnect from reality by means of fantasy-novel references.
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 No.469271

>>469270
>than if they had just implemented the Minsk2 agreement.
Russians never withdrew their troops. Minsk was never going to work, and both sides broke it. You can stop crying about it now.
>They are worse off in every metric, this is not helping
Weapons are helping rid their country of Russian animals. I'd call that working.
>It is fitting that you would display your disconnect from reality by means of fantasy-novel references.
Yes, totally disconnected, even though we have leaked intelligence that says as much. Intelligence which you stupid faggots badly edited in an effort to cope harder. It's basically confirmed that Russia is losing this war. You cannot stop it. How will you cope when the next Russian defeat inevitably occurs?
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 No.469272

>>469268
>The lesson is don't invade your neighbors.
You're delusional, the Russians consider it liberating fellow Slaves from the yoke of Ukrainian Bandera nationalism, which they consider a flare up of Third-Reich remnants. Some of the speeches from the Russian head of state express some degree of regret about having allowed unsuccessful diplomacy to continue as long as it did because it allowed their opponents to gain more time for arming up. If anything Russian foreign policy is likely to become harder in the future.

>Ukrainians can stop fighting any time they like. They have chosen to keep fighting, and they will continue to do so.
OK there's goons like the Azov Battalion that really wanted to fight, but most of the people that Ukraine send to the front are given no choice. They're not volunteering to die for the Neocon crusade, they are being kidnapped from the streets, put through basic training and then it's off to the meat-grinder for them.
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 No.469274

>>469272
>You're delusional, the Russians consider it liberating fellow Slaves
No. Only Russians are slaves. This is why they cannot understand people not wanting them there.
>If anything Russian foreign policy is likely to become harder in the future.
Kek. Russia will be begging the west for scraps by 2025.
>OK there's goons like the Azov Battalion that really wanted to fight, but most of the people that Ukraine send to the front are given no choice.
Hey, dipshit. We know what public opinion is in Ukraine. We don't have to guess at it. Ukrainians overwhelmingly support continuing the war until they get all their territory back.
>They're not volunteering to die for the Neocon crusade, they are being kidnapped from the streets
Ukraine has suspended conscription. Your videos of MPs arresting criminals (yes, crime still gets prosecuted in time of war) is not evidence of what you claim it is. You're just lying. Keep lying, though. I'm sure when all predictions based on your lies fail to come true, you'll find another cope about why the Russian military is so incompetent.
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 No.469275

>>469271
>Russians never withdrew their troops
Well technically they didn't, at least not out of Ukraine, they just moved them around inside of Ukraine, and the Ukrainian force were dealt heavy attrition losses. I don't really understand why you think this is a war for territory. The Russian military strategy looks like they are doing a war of attrition, and their military generals also say that's what they are doing. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck it's probably a duck

>Noooooo don't point out that Minsk2 was the better deal for Ukraine
kek

>Nato Weapons are helping rid Ukraine
of Ukrainian conscripts.

>Yes, totally disconnected
Indeed you are.

If you didn't fall for the NATO propaganda narrative you'd know that. Ukraine is having massive losses and is running out of weapons, while Russian losses are low and they are brimming with weapons.
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 No.469276

>>469274
In any case the Russians are not learning the lessons you want them too

>Russia will be begging the west
They're friends with China and get those win-win cooperation benefits, they'll do fine.

>We know what public opinion is in Ukraine.
Well they banned all opposition parties, so we can rule out that the population stands behind the current Ukrainian regime. They wouldn't abandon democracy if the demos stood behind them. Don't forget that Zelensky was elected on a campaign promise to make peace with Russia.

You are trying to invert reality. There is zero democratic consent for the Ukrainian state at the moment. Even the Russian military had more democratic reflexes, since they did do those referenda. While the legitimacy of those is very questionable, its still more democratic in comparison since the Ukrainian state doesn't even do bourgeois democracy anymore.
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 No.469277

>>469275
>Well technically they didn't
So they never adhered to Minsk2.
>I don't really understand why you think this is a war for territory. The Russian military strategy looks like they are doing a war of attrition,
That's a strategy for those that have no other option. This means Russia cannot break through Ukrainian lines. So much for the world's second strongest military. For Ukraine it is about territory.
>If you didn't fall for the NATO propaganda narrative you'd know that. Ukraine is having massive losses
Retard alert. We had actual intelligence leaks. Ukrainians are dealing more losses to Russians than the other way around.
>while Russian losses are low and they are brimming with weapons.
Brimming with 1950s era weapons because they have basically run out of modern ones. How long will you keep up the cope?
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 No.469278

>>469276
>They're friends with China and get those win-win cooperation benefits, they'll do fine.
So why hasn't China voted in favor of Russia for any resolution? Why haven't they sent them any aid? Why isn't China providing low interest loans to stabilize Russian foreign currency reserves?
>Well they banned all opposition parties, so we can rule out that the population stands behind the current
They banned 11 parties with direct ties to Russia out of 120 some odf parties in Ukraine. All members of said parties kept their seats.
>Don't forget that Zelensky was elected on a campaign promise to make peace with Russia.
And then Russia invaded. Go figure.
>You are trying to invert reality. There is zero democratic consent for the Ukrainian state at the moment.
Independent polling shows the opposite. Lying doesn't work here. We're not Russians.
>Even the Russian military had more democratic reflexes, since they did do those referenda.
Yes, the ones at gunpoint that had more people voting in some areas than were actually present. Nice job, dipshit.
>its still more democratic in comparison since the Ukrainian state doesn't even do bourgeois democracy anymore.
You literally referenced Zelenskyy's election a few lines ago. Which is it, did he have a mandate to make peace or is it just fake now? Jesus, you're stupid.
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 No.469279

>>469277
>So they never adhered to Minsk2.
You misread, i was talking about what happened after feb 2022.

>That's a strategy for those that have no other option.
Well they are doing the war of attrition to destroy Ukraine's combat power, so that their is no force left that could join NATO in an attack against Russia. They're also probably doing this to minimize the possibility of a post war insurgency. But you're not wrong that Russians feel like they have no choice but to fight. I'm just kinda puzzled that you would concede this point.

>This means Russia cannot break through Ukrainian lines.
Of course they could, Russia has enough conventional fire power to bomb Ukraine into the stone-age ten times over. They are trying to maximally economize on their military expenditures because they think that Ukraine is potentially intended as just the first wave that NATO will throw at them. They're thinking that this is potentially just the opening battle of WW3, and they're digging in as a contingency.

>We had actual intelligence leaks.
Intelligence leaks are not very reliable they can have planted information, however those leaks more or less corroborated that Russian losses were low and Ukrainianian losses were extremely high. Potentially a 10:1 K/D ratio in Russia's favor. You're in lala-land those leaks contradict your narrative.

What scares me is that the line you are pushing is potentially a propaganda narrative that is supposed to convince western populations to accept an escalation that entails sending NATO troops with a deceptive narrative that Russia was weakened and easy prey. Western governments are in legitimacy crisis and attempting conscript people to fight in a war will most likely cause radical change in political power, so this is a remote scenario but on the off chance that the imperialists could somehow pull this off, NATO troops would get hammered with the type of mercilessness that hasn't been on display since the red-army Bulldozer annihilated about 80% of the axis powers in the WW2 European battle theater.

Even if you're some kind of glowy that gets payed to shitpost NATO talking points in a mongolian basket weaving forum, this scenario would likely also threaten your hide, because there are nukes now. Why are you making these noises ?

>Brimming with 1950s era weapons because they have basically run out of modern ones.
This sounds like projection, because NATO is sending those ancient Leopard-I tanks and ancient M113 armored personal carriers to Ukraine.
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 No.469280

File: 1683820495610.mp4 (38.15 MB, 1280x720, zodldx.mp4)

>>469279
>You misread, i was talking about what happened after feb 2022.
No. And it is a fact that Russia denied they had troops in Ukraine and only admitted to it after Ukraine captured some in 2015. Minsk included the withdrawal of RF troops, which never happened. Nobody ever adhered to Minsk. Stop crying about it.
>Well they are doing the war of attrition to destroy Ukraine's combat power,
The US never needed to trade bodies for destruction of military power. It's called breakthroughs and encirclements. Competent militaries can do maneuver warfare. Russia is not one of these. Furthermore they are losing men disproportionately to Ukraine, so there goes that theory.
>Of course they could
May I remind you of their failed offensive at Vuhledar. Russia cannot mount offensive actions. They're out of steam.
>Intelligence leaks are not very reliable they can have planted information,
So you're saying the kid that leaked info to his private server was doing this in order to somehow promote US propaganda, even though this info was not shared for months? Is that what you're saying? The retarded leaker was in on it? I just want to see you type that out.
>Potentially a 10:1 K/D ratio in Russia's favor.
No. That's not even in the realm of possibility. This is cope, and you either know this, or are too retarded to face reality.
>What scares me is that the line you are pushing is potentially a propaganda narrative that is supposed to convince western populations to accept an escalation that entails sending NATO troops with a deceptive narrative that Russia was weakened and easy prey.
We don't need to send western troops. The Ukrainians are doing a fine job, and the Russians have no response. You are living in a fantasy world where it is the western bloc that is somehow unstable, in spite of complete and uniform opposition to Russia. You're a massive fucking retard.
> but on the off chance that the imperialists could somehow pull this off, NATO troops would get hammered with the type of mercilessness that hasn't been on display since the red-army Bulldozer annihilated about 80% of the axis powers in the WW2 European battle theater.
The Russian military couldn't even take over one of its neighbors. It would not survive a week against a NATO assault. Your forces are spent and they are led by idiots. There is no win scenario.
>Even if you're some kind of glowy that gets payed to shitpost NATO talking points in a mongolian basket weaving forum, this scenario would likely also threaten your hide, because there are nukes now. Why are you making these noises ?
I'd like to see Putin try it. By the way, who was it that serviced the Russian nuclear arsenal before 2014? Oh, it was Ukrainian nuclear engineers. Gee, I wonder if Russia retained that expertise or if they just decided to pretend to, like they did for everything else.
>This sounds like projection, because NATO is sending those ancient Leopard-I tanks and ancient M113 armored personal carriers to Ukraine.
And when that ancient shit inevitably stomps Russian troops, you'll be crying that it was all the western superweapons and not because Ukrainians are simply not subhuman animals like Russian soldiers.
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 No.469281

>>469278
>So why hasn't China voted in favor of Russia for any resolution?
China also didn't vote for the western resolutions, their official stance is that China isn't involved in the Ukraine war.

>Why haven't they sent them any aid? Why isn't China providing low interest loans to stabilize Russian foreign currency reserves?
It doesn't look like Russia needed aid or financial stabilization. China didn't really have to do anything other than continue what they call win-win cooperation, which basically means trade on equal footing. The western sanctions just meant that the Russians and the Chinese would trade more in Yuan and Rubel with each other. For example the Chinese get more Russian gas and the Russians get Chinese Huawei phones to replace all the Apple and Samsung phones that got sanctioned away.

>Go figure.
No it means that Zelensky did not deliver on his campaign promises. Keep in mind that Zelensky published an article in a Germann newspaper (it could be "der spiegel" i don't really remember) that he never intended to make peace with the Russians and all the diplomatic functions were nothing but a ruse to gain time for arms build up. He basically confessed to having sabotage the peace-process.

>Independent polling shows the opposite.
Not a chance, if Ukraine doesn't allow at least bourgeois democracy with opposition parties, they have zero democratic credibility.
>Yes, the ones at gunpoint
No, you miss-understood, i know that a referendum held by a military in the context of an ongoing war can't really be considered a reliable mechanism for democratic legitimization. Of course "real democracy" can only happen in the context of at minimum a cease-fire. Where you can insure that all the people eligible to vote can attend and it's possible to rule out intimidation.

I'm trying to make a different point. The Russian military doing a referendum even if you don't consider it legit, still has to be be recognized as some sort of attempt at a democratic process. Do you know of any other military holding a referendum in a similar context ?

In contrast the Ukrainian state banning all opposition parties is basically killing all democratic process. If you compare the two, the Ukrainian state somehow manages to do less democratic process than the Russian military. Nobody really expects a military to do proper democratic process, because that's more or less the opposite of their "skill-set". But we do expect that governmental organizations to do proper democratic process, and when they do worse than a military that's saying something.

To spell this out: Forget about attempting to paint the Ukrainian regime as democratically legitimized, they burned that possibility when they repressed all political opposition.

>You literally referenced Zelenskyy's election a few lines ago. Which is it.
Zelensky was elected by bourgeois democratic standards, bourgeois democracy has a strong tendency to not prioritize the interests of the demos, but it's still on the democratic spectrum to some extend. Some time after Zelensky was elected, either he or his handlers (i'm not sure how much effective power he still holds) banned all the opposition parties, and that means democracy even the low bar of bourgeois democracy was abandoned.
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 No.469282

>>469281
>China also didn't vote for the western resolutions, their official stance is that China isn't involved in the Ukraine war.
Lol, dumbfuck:
https://www.kyivpost.com/post/16484
>China didn't really have to do anything other than continue what they call win-win cooperation, which basically means trade on equal footing. The western sanctions just meant that the Russians and the Chinese would trade more in Yuan and Rubel with each other. For example the Chinese get more Russian gas and the Russians get Chinese Huawei phones to replace all the Apple and Samsung phones that got sanctioned away.
Kek:
https://www.scmp.com/tech/big-tech/article/3203995/huawei-disbands-enterprise-business-team-russia-further-pullback-amid-western-sanctions-local-media
>No it means that Zelensky did not deliver on his campaign promises. Keep in mind that Zelensky published an article in a Germann newspaper (it could be "der spiegel" i don't really remember) that he never intended to make peace with the Russians and all the diplomatic functions were nothing but a ruse to gain time for arms build up. He basically confessed to having sabotage the peace-process.
Hard to deliver on peace when you're being invaded.
>Not a chance, if Ukraine doesn't allow at least bourgeois democracy with opposition parties, they have zero democratic credibility.
There are opposition parties in Ukraine, just not ones with ties to Russia, and members of those parties got to keep their seats.
>I'm trying to make a different point. The Russian military doing a referendum even if you don't consider it legit, still has to be be recognized as some sort of attempt at a democratic process.
No. It's completely the opposite. It's trying to claim legitimacy through the sham of said process. It's quite obviously the total opposite of even an attempt. It's trying to ensure that there won't be one.
>Forget about attempting to paint the Ukrainian regime as democratically legitimized,
You acknowledged that Zelenskyy was democratically elected. Stop trying to take it back now.
>Zelensky was elected by bourgeois democratic standards,
Which is more democracy than Russians have access too and more than they're willing to give others access to. Get over it. You're losing this one way or another.
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 No.469283

>>469262
>>469263
>Ukraine does not belong to Russia and there was no coup.
There was an unconstitutional transfer of power by a political bloc that received American support. It was a color revolution. You denying it over and over won't make it false. America should have stayed in America.
>Was. This is what the revolution was about.
Still is, the revolution failed and Ukraine is still the same corrupt shithole barely different from Russia.
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 No.469284

>>469263
>This is what the revolution was about.
rofl then it failed immediately, because another oligarch camp simply replaced Yanukovych's camp.
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 No.469285

>>469283
>There was an unconstitutional transfer of power by a political bloc that received American support.
His own party voted him unfit for office after he fled the country. You're making up shit again.
>It was a color revolution
Color revolution is not synonymous with coup, but you would know that if you weren't a vatnik.
> You denying it over and over won't make it false. America should have stayed in America.
We're doing fine, and we don't have soldiers fighting inside Ukraine.
>Still is, the revolution failed and Ukraine is still the same corrupt shithole barely different from Russia.
I know you want to believe that, because you can't accept that Ukrainians are doing what Russians could not manage. The fact is the revolution was over that corruption, and you're not going to get Ukraine back the way that it was. Ukraine will forever be an unfriendly state to Russia. Russia has done this to itself.
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 No.469286

>>469281
>Zelensky was elected by bourgeois democratic standards, elections have a strong tendency to not prioritize the interests of the demos, but it's still on the democratic spectrum to some extend.
If you said this to the ancient Athenians or Romans they would have laughed in your face. No, elections are not on any sort of democratic spectrum, they are nakedly and blatantly an institution of oligarchy.
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 No.469287

>>469283
Ukraine never had a strongman like Lukashenko or Putin to come in and exert control over its post-Soviet oligarchy, the corruption there is actually considerably different and much larger than in Russia or Belarus.
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 No.469288

>>469286
>elections are not on any sort of democratic spectrum
Okay, then what is?
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 No.469289

File: 1683826645048.jpeg (39.94 KB, 414x575, kleroterion-reconstructed.jpeg)

>>469288
Sortition.
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 No.469290

>>469289
>declare schizo new president
>house is made of random idiots that don't care about policy
>hurr this is better than holding elections
You're a fucking retard.
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 No.469291

File: 1683827593898.jpg (23.01 KB, 430x293, deal with it Revolution bu….jpg)

>>469290
>this is better than holding elections
Correct.
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 No.469292

>>469291
Glad you admitted to your retardation.
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 No.469293

>>469290
>>469292
Now tell us why juries should also only be open to qualified candidates.
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 No.469294

File: 1683829174959.png (281.74 KB, 1000x1000, donbass artillery strike t….png)

>>469280
>No. And it is a fact that Russia denied they had troops in Ukraine and only admitted to it after Ukraine captured some in 2015. Minsk included the withdrawal of RF troops, which never happened. Nobody ever adhered to Minsk. Stop crying about it.
Ok i'm not really sure were you are going with this.

The US did a color revolution regime operation during the 2014 euro-maidan protests, commonly called the orange revolution. After that Crimea declared independence and the day after they did that they joined the Russian federation, and Russian light infantry moved into Crimea. I would consider that a legit process, because there were international observers that attested to proper democratic procedures. The Russians facilitated that because they want the Sevastopol warm water port in Crimea.

The post orange revolution Ukrainian government implemented various discriminatory laws and that had the result of alienating large parts of the population in eastern Ukraine (i.e. the Donbass). Two people's republics in Lugansk and Donetsk declared independence and separated from Ukraine. That's when the Donbass civil war broke out. The Ukrainian government allowed Ukrainian fascists (funded, trained and armed by the CIA) to shell civilian areas in those regions that wanted to separate from Ukraine. At that point no other government on earth including the Russian one had officially recognized those regions as autonomous countries. So they were in some kind of transitional limbo, where they could either re-integrate into Ukraine, become sovereign countries or become part of another country. I'm assuming that the Russians did to some extend support the militias of Donetsk people's republic and Lugansk people's republic. But that happened as a response to the CIA funding the "right sector" fascists in Ukraine. The DPR and LPR militias those had lots of socdems and communists, which i considere a vastly superior ideological direction.

At that point the Ukrainian state was at least consenting to the use of Ukrainian military equipment like artillery and mortars being used to shell a civilian population that this very same state considered to be it's citizens. The officially stated goal by many of those fascistic "right sector" leaders was that this was supposed to drive out the pro Russian population from those areas, lets call that violent ethnic displacement. The situation for the pro Russian Ukrainians was similarly to that of the Palestinians getting subjected to ethno-terror by the Zionists, with the notable exception being that the Palestinians don't have a Superpower that can swing a big bludgeon on their behalf.

I do understand the Russians supporting the DPR and LPR militias while the US supporting Ukrainian "right sector" is basically like a classic proxy war. However the Russians offered a reasonable solution where the Donbass would get greater political autonomy, that would effectively negate all the ethnic terror and discrimination, while still remaining part of Ukraine. That was objectively a very good solution for this situation where everybody except the "ethno-warriors" got what they wanted, and the Ukrainian state basically lost all sympathies when they didn't take it and instead started to mass the Ukrainian military for a purge. A few days before the Russian military marched in, the artillery bombardment from the Ukrainian side spiked, which many people interpreted as the prelude for the Ukrainian assault. The Russians officially recognized those people's republics as countries and the Russian military started it's campaign in Ukraine. The geo-political context was Donbass political autonomy would also have meant that they could veto NATO installations being placed in their domain, just in case you wanted to know why the US backed the ethno-purge hardliners.

I think that Ukraine was behaving in a similarly unforgivable manor as Israel in it's ethnic conflict. Which Zelensky seems to have confirmed by saying something like Ukraine would be the Israel of eastern Europe. If the Russians can restore tranquility (in the sense that the civilian areas aren't struck by artillery shells and mortars) and they can facilitate at least bourgeois level of democracy that does not invert the ethnic terror with regards to the pro Ukrainian population that still resides in those lands, that represents an objective improvement over the situation that existed before.

In case that you want to play the game of who's version of history yields the most legitimate claim for that region, then you'll be disappointed because technically Ukraine voted about 70% to remain a Soviet Republic and that means that technically the entity who has a legitimate historical claim doesn't really exist anymore. The closest thing to a surviving remaining Soviet system is probably Belarus. Politically pairing Belarus and Ukraine is unrealistic, but boy oh boy would it bring surplus enjoyment if the neo-con foreign policy belligerency had managed to create the conditions to resurrect a tiny Soviet block reviving their cold-war nemesis. And we could officially celebrate them as unwitting heros of revolutionary defeatism.
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 No.469295

>>469286
Sure if you go by the strict definition:
Democracy = rule by the demos, or state institutions prioritize the material interests of the demos.
By that definition bourgeois democracy is plutocracy/oligarchy.

The Marxist definition still makes a distinction between bourgeois electoral-ism and open dictatorship of the bourgeoisie. That's the distinction i was getting at.

>>469289
Ok you are right Sortition is better than Electoral-ism
But Electoral-ism is better than Open-bourgeois-dictatorship
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 No.469296

>>469290
Randomly selected people from the street won't be elite politicians, creating the most perfectly optimized policy, but statistically speaking they also won't be malicious neo-liberal power-brokers that gladly light the world on fire if their electoral campaign donors ask them to.

The result will be better.
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 No.469298

File: 1683832711974.png (260.06 KB, 1080x2158, Screenshot_20230511-211549….png)

>>469280
>Russia cannot mount offensive actions. They're out of steam.
They don't need to mount offensives. They can just hold what they have and slowly grind down the Ukrainian army, like they are doing in Bakhmut, Avdivka, Kremina, etc. I think they do want to reach those rivers west of Donetsk, to have a natural defensive line, like they do in Kherson, Zaporizhe, and Luhansk. Other than that, the small offensives you see are basically to keep the Ukrainian army moving. Russia engages in defensive warfare with fast troop rotation. On the Russian side they have trains and tracked vehicles that transport troops back and forth. Did you never consider the implications of Ukraine moving troops to the front in civilian vehicles while Russian has columns of trucks? lol Ukraine uses their M113 personnel carriers as assault vehicles. There's loads of videos on reddit of those things getting one-shotted and a bunch of poor, burning Ukrainians falling out of it.

You don't even need "leaks", fancy, coloured maps, or "experts" to see what is happening. Ukraine has no MBTs, 100 Leopard Is and a few token Abrams that can't leave Poland. Then they have Bradleys, which are not MBTs: 3m tall and shitty armour. Did you look at the leaks? Ukraine's armoured divisions are slapped together with old Soviet shit, random German, Swedish, American, French vehicles. No artillery in any meaningful sense, Russia fires 3x as many shells as Ukraine per day, and has consistently done so for the duration of the war.

Going back to the vehicles. How many Russian civilian vehicles have been destroyed when taking part in offensive operations? 0. Russia isn't using civilian vehicles because they don't need to. No, old Ladas Russian soldiers painted a Z on and then joyrided in don't count.

Russia has actual military vehicles, loads of them. Tracked, untracked and everything in between. You talk about manoeuvering, what maneuvers better in mud? A Volkswagen Passat or an MT-LB?

>meanwhile, on the winning side…
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 No.469299

File: 1683835761065-0.png (986.01 KB, 1080x1858, Screenshot_20230511-214252….png)

File: 1683835761065-1.png (464.97 KB, 738x1640, Screenshot_20230511-214347….png)

File: 1683835761065-2.png (54.91 KB, 1080x917, Screenshot_20230511-214649….png)

File: 1683835761065-3.png (170.23 KB, 1080x1813, Screenshot_20230511-214959….png)

>>469280
>a NATO assault
With what? Several NATO members have actually disarmed some of their divisions and sent the weapons to Ukraine. Latvian sent their whole airforce, Denmark and Netherlands sent all their tanks, Denmark sent all of their Caesar SPGs. They've sent all but the bare minimum of ammo they need for defense (not offense). US can't help, they'd have a hard time moving anything across the Atlantic in case of a war with Russia, it'd be a shower of missiles and drones, American fighter pilots would be falling like flies and ships would be sinking all over the place.

NATO can't attack Russia right now, NATO knows it, Russia knows it, China knows it, hell everyone probably knows it except you. That's why they're throwing Ukrainian workers at Russians in hopes it reduces the Russian arsenal somewhat.

It is true Russia is using old equipment. But why wouldn't they? That stuff has been sitting in storage for decades, it was produced and kept in case of a NATO attack. It will only get older, now is a good opportunity to use it.

But rest assured, Russia has plenty of materiel. Unlike the Western militaries who changed their doctrine every decade, inventing a new wunderwaffe and then basing their whole strategy around it. Always someone coming up with brilliant new ideas and finally finding the right formula. Meanwhile Russians have focused on what they have focused since the 50s: brigade level artillery (meaning they have lots of shells and rockets), BTGs (meaning they have a lot of tanks), and manoeuvering (which means they have a lot of vehicles that can traverse all kinds of terrain with heavy loads).

And now we see the results of the different histories. The side supported by NATO doesn't have enough artillery ammo, artillery pieces, tanks or vehicles to fight a conventional war, meanwhile Russia has plenty of it. Ironically, all the fancy and super cool operator high-tech shit that Western militaries rely on they refuse to send to Ukraine. It's fucking tragic and also hilarious.

Still waiting on that ammo to run out… Hey, remember when in the beginning of the war they said Russia, A.K.A. "Europe's gas station" was going to run out of fuel? Always a few months left, victory always just out of reach.

Now they're claiming they've destroyed more tanks than they claimed Russia originally had?
https://minusrus.com/en

600.000 wounded out of the 180.000 + 300.000 Russian soldiers in Ukraine? Who the hell are they fighting over there?

The lies are so fucking transparent: ghost of Kiev, snake island, old man shooting down Su-25 with a shotgun, a goat killing 30 Russian soldiers, Russia running out of fuel, Russian soldiers stealing washing machines (this one was really weird), Russia running out of ammo, Russians bringing "mobile crematoria" for all the Ukrainians they were going to genocide (but then left bodies lying around for weeks while in Bucha)…

And you fucking redditoid NAFO libs believe EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. OF. THEM. Then when it turns out not to be true, you're all like "well it's good for morale". AAAAAAAAA I just wanna scream and punch every single one of you.

Not because I think you're retarded, because if I did, I wouldn't beat you up. You can't help being retarded. No, I wanna punch you because you disgusting liberal worms know EXACTLY what you're doing. You've thrown out truth, logic, reason, and knowledge, in favour of tribalism and cheering for your "team". Just like the Trump supporters you hate, you think you're nothing like them, but you're exactly like them.

Look in the mirror son, is that the kind of man you want to be? One who says one thing, but actually means another? One who tells you something, but then schemes behind your back? And for what? To "win"? What are you going to win? We all just lose.

Is your life so boring that the only entertainment you get, only joy you feel, is this para-social, de-humanised consumption of the war?

Have you considered that the feeling of "righteousness", that hate against Russians, is nothing more than your thought processes being influenced by the endorphins and dopamine released after you see number go up, or your colour getting bigger on the map?

Go play cookie clicker, and think about something mundane, I guarantee you you will feel strongly about that mundane thing. That mundane thing will suddenly be important.

We're not that hard to manipulate, and if you aren't trolling, I'm afraid you've been had. Turn off the PC, go outside, Ukraine is thousands of miles away, Russia is even farther away. Just go outside and breathe.
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 No.469300

File: 1683836304016.jpg (692.27 KB, 1000x1426, fd6.jpg)

>>469298
>They don't need to mount offensives.
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 No.469302

>>469300
Ukrainians are doing a great job destroying themselves by rushing ATGMs, RPG-7s, MBTs, BMPs in cardboard-plated M113s.

"Never interrupt your enemy, while he is making a mistake." - Big Dong Tzu, lord of war
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 No.469305

File: 1683843924721.jpg (66.43 KB, 638x468, 1683836194741979.jpg)

Ukrainian counteroffensive gains. Total Ukrainian victory. A million Russians killed.

Can we end the war now, pls?
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 No.469306

>>469305
End the war? Never. The bloodletting must continue. NAFO gang and Putler demand it. Trillions must die. Feed the ground!
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 No.469307

>>469302
>>469302
>Ukrainians are doing a great job destroying themselves by rushing ATGMs, RPG-7s, MBTs, BMPs in cardboard-plated M113s.
>Ukrainians are doing that thing we did two months ago in Vuhledar
>Believe me, no source
Kek, the projection of the vatnik. It's almost IMAX quality.
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 No.469308

>>469299
>We're not that hard to manipulate,
We know, vatnik. We know.
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 No.469309

File: 1683849498701.png (328.53 KB, 1080x1963, Screenshot_20230512-013624….png)

>>469307
>>469308
Yeah, tell him. stupid vatnik doesn't even know the whole war was about getting Biden re-elected. If Biden wins the 2024 presidential election, Ukraine wins the war. simple as
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 No.469310

>>469293
They are only open to qualified candidates. They get vetted for bias and things like that in order to make trials fair. Imagine being a black man being tried by a random crowd in Mississipi. Some will get a fair trial, but most would not.
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 No.469311

>>469285
The fact you care so much about this war leads me to believe you're either a brainwashed liberal or ethnically Ukrainian.
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 No.469312

File: 1683855821382.gif (3.95 MB, 600x400, kys.gif)

>>469311
>why do you care about things
>just be apolitical and dip out of politics like Russians
>stop correcting my propaganda
Kek. Take a pic. I'm Ukrainian. I'm a liberal. I'm a liberal Ukrainian married to a liberal Ukrainian. I'm CIA. I'm an MKULTRA plant. I'm whatever you want me to be, but at the end of the day. I'm still right, and you're still going to cope.
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 No.469313

>>469312
The only cope I've been observing here is the nationalist who feels the need to go on an obscure leftist basket weaving forum to taunt people with gore pics. Are you sure that's not someone's desperate way of coping with the reality that Ukraine is suffering a crushing military defeat?
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 No.469314

>>469313
>N-N-Nationalist
No. I'm not the one advocating for land partition on ethnic lines or trying to support imperialism just because it's from Russia. That's you. Cope, faggot.
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 No.469315

>>469312
Yep, brainwashed, probably with undiagnosed mental illness. This "vatnik" obsession is not healthy.
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 No.469316

File: 1683863838687.jpg (75.21 KB, 1024x613, 1683855649378083m.jpg)

>>469315
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 No.469317

>>469316
Nice totally not astroturfed meme. Why are are you so angry about this subject?
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 No.469318

File: 1683871370962.png (604.32 KB, 800x533, ClipboardImage.png)

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/ukraine/russia-war-ukraines-hidden-advantage
Ukraine’s Hidden Advantage
<How European Trainers Have Transformed Kyiv’s Army and Changed the War
>European countries are providing all of Ukraine’s basic combat training.
>Europe is providing weapons that the United States is hesitant to send.
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 No.469320

>>469314
>I'm not the one advocating for land partition on ethnic lines
Nah, you're advocating young men be taken from their homes and be thrown at the front so that Ukraine can keep its ''original' borders. Face it, you're a BLOOD & SOIL fascist.
>"fucking Russian orcs, who'd want to live with them anyway?"
>proceeds to send hundreds of thousands to their death so they can retake majority-Russian areas
Flawless logic. Face it, your only justification for wanting Crimea back for example is that it "should be Ukrainian". Why not give it back to the Tatars? Or the Mongols? How far back should we go?

Nationalist logic doesn't make sense.
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 No.469322

File: 1683874628289.jpg (144.88 KB, 680x848, 9k=(4).jpg)

>>469317
Because he's not allowed to leave Ukraine, while his gf is on a never-ending European fuck-tour. Ukrainian refugees get 90 days of free travel within the EU.

I might go and pretend I support Ukraine, go to some of these countless events for refugees, and pick me up some prime Ukrainian ass, just to fucking annoy you. Age of consent is 15 here, btw.
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 No.469323

>>469280
>Furthermore they are losing men disproportionately to Ukraine.
No that's just War propaganda inverting reality. Most of the media in the west is more or less just relaying what ever the Ukrainian defense minister says, why would you believe this ? The old saying that the first casualty in war is still true, that also applies. Although one has to say that as far war propaganda goes the Ukrainian one is transparently ludicrous if you add up all the Russians they report to have killed, that ads up to a much greater number than what the Russians deployed.

The last time we had anything remotely based in fact was from the December-January period when the EU commission president said Ukraine had 100k losses and the BBC said they could confirm 16k losses on the basis of funerals in Russia. So Ukraine is loosing vastly more troops then Russia.

Ukraine is of course much worse equipped militarily than Russia, but the main reason why Ukraine is loosing these huge numbers of people is because they hold onto territory even when it's militarily no longer reasonable to do so.

The Ukrainians funneled unbelievably huge numbers of soldier into Bakhmut, since the last time we got somewhat credible numbers for losses. So don't expect the terrible loss ratios to have improved.

So Ukraine is definitely loosing a war of attrition.
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 No.469324

>>469318
HAHAHAHAHA the blame game has started.
>you didn't send enough weapons!
>no, you didn't send enough weapons
Westerners know these armed and trained Nazi Ukrainians will turn on any country that hasn't supported them enough. All those NLAWs and Javelins, it's gonna be dangerous to be an EU politician very soon.
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 No.469325

>>469280
>Russia cannot mount offensive actions. They're out of steam.
Wishful thinking, Russia is winning a war of attrition. At present they are fighting on fronts that are mostly static or slowly advancing, which has low logistical costs, they are also having very low casualties for the number of Ukrainian forces they destroy. If this continues long enough they win. Why would they go on large offensives where their casualties would probably be greater.
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 No.469326

>>469323
Every pro-Ukraine post gets thousands of upvotes on reddit, while pro-Russian posts get downvoted into oblivion. If Ukraine didn't kill many Russians, then why aren't they giving more upvotes? Therefore, Ukraine is winning. QED
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 No.469327

Another important aspect of Russia's long-term battle strategy that I only heard someone comment on recently is that they are trying to prepare themselves for future conflict with NATO adversaries after the war. Why would they waste their military personnel and equipment now on costly sacrificial battles when they may need it later?
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 No.469328

>>469320
Most people fighting for Ukraine in the Donbas are Russian speakers. It's not about blood and soil. It's about not dooming a significant part of your population to living in a shithole like Russia. The only ones trying to do the bood and soil thing are the Russians under Putin.
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 No.469329

>>469323
>No that's just War propaganda inverting realit
Comes from every reliable assessment so far as well as an intelligence leak. You can leep crying about it, but that is the truth.
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 No.469330

>>469328
>It's about not dooming a significant part of your population to living in a shithole like Russia.
Funny you should say that, as Ukraine was/is worse than Russia by every metric. You think Russia is corrupt? Ukraine is more corrupt. You think Russia is a shithole? Ukraine is even more of a shithole.

You couldn't even find Ukraine on a map until a year ago. Now they are suddenly the beacon of freedom, democracy and transparency. Give me a break.

If you're not a glowie, and you're not mentally retarded, the only other explanation for your opinions is that you are Ukrainian. You should stop using my tax money, parasite, and go fight the Russians you hate so much. Last 1.67% of Bakhmut needs to be soaked with Ukrainian blood. SALIVA UKRAINI!
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 No.469331

>>469329
>Comes from every reliable assessment so far
This is interesting, you think something is true because you heard it often. So who ever has the most media infrastructure to repeat a narrative can author "your truth".

My experience has taught me to distrust everything that the media keeps repeating, because so many times it ends up being a artificial narrative that somebody tries to insert into public discourse.

>as well as an intelligence leak
was there more than one intelligence leak, are we not talking about the same thing ?

I saw a bunch of complaints in the press about the NATO intelligence leaks showing low numbers for Russian losses, which would mean that those documents corroborated low Russian losses. The press was even pontificating about the documents having been manipulated, because they didn't like the numbers.

I don't understand why you are claiming the opposite.
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 No.469332

>>469331
>This is interesting, you think something is true because you heard it often. So who ever has the most media infrastructure to repeat a narrative can author "your truth".
That's how they think. That's why RT and anything Russian is banned. They've been Othered, and now you can attach any epithet to them, and libs will believe it. Russians have been dehumanised in preparation for war against Russia. This is how you manufacture consent.
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 No.469333

>>469331
>The press was even pontificating about the documents having been manipulated, because they didn't like the numbers.
Simple, numbers that don't agree with his view are fake, numbers that do are real. Idealism is a cancer.
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 No.469334

>>469330
>You couldn't even find Ukraine on a map until a year ago. Now they are suddenly the beacon of freedom, democracy and transparency. Give me a break.
Speak for yourself. I have been active with the Ukrainian community since 2008. This is how I know you constantly make shit up. Ukraine is corrupt, but that doesn't mean Russia gets to invade. Ukraine does not belong to Russia.
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 No.469335

>>469331
>The press was even pontificating about the documents having been manipulated, because they didn't like the numbers.
Guessing the piss poor Photoshop job had something to do with it. Intelligence leak shows roughly a 2:1 ratio in Ukraine's favor, as well as further corroboration of Russian vehicle losses, hence the one pathetic T-34 at this year's parade.
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 No.469337

>>469335
I'm not sure I'm correctly interpreting your story here. You are basically saying that the NATO document leak was manipulated by photo-editing software, and that's where the low Russian losses numbers come from. Yes?

Well it seems to me that you are claiming that those leaked documents aren't a good source since they were manipulated, yet you somehow also claim that those are an authoritative source at the same time, and we must imagine the document contained the numbers you declared to be true.

Do you see how that comes over as bullshitting ?
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 No.469338

I think it's mind-boggling how both the Russians and the Ukrainians are calling each other fascists, this war is ukronazis vs rascists, two brother nations but when they have to defend themselves they call the other side a nazi.
Putin is really doing a great job destroying Russia from the inside, I think he's trying to both win the special military operation, stay in power and humiliate the Army, it's the only way I can make sense of the decisions being taken.
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 No.469340

>>469332
You are not wrong, but the fact that they censored makes it appear that their consent manufacturing isn't really working as well as it once did.
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 No.469344

>>469337
>I'm not sure I'm correctly interpreting your story here. You are basically saying that the NATO document leak was manipulated by photo-editing software,
The unedited version shows high russian losses. The only version that shows otherwise is compressed and has uneven spacing. You can say that the US is wrong about its assessment, but they clearly believe it.
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 No.469346

>>469344
So there's 2 versions of the document now. How convenient.

>You can say that the US is wrong about its assessment, but they clearly believe it.
No there's always the option that the US military knows what's going on, and they lie about it, and it wouldn't be the first time they leaked docs on purpose.

It seems to me that the amount of information we can glean from this is limited. I certainly don't trust your image forensic skills. There is no reason to think that the compressed doc isn't the original leak, it certainly would be easier to create a clean and uncompressed forgery-doc from scratch than to replicate image compression artifacts.
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 No.469347

>>469346
>So there's 2 versions of the document now. How convenient.
Yeah, one is obvious edited. It has lower resolution, uneven spacing, and doesn't not match the rest of the documents that quote the same numbers. Again, you may disagree with the numbers, but that is what the US intelligence apparatus believes.
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 No.469348

File: 1683932864624.jpg (454.9 KB, 755x382, 20230512_180728.jpg)

>>469347
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 No.469350

File: 1683934452764.jpg (104.71 KB, 755x382, spot my edit.jpg)

>>469347
>I know what the US intelligence apparatus believes.
Not unless you can read their minds.
You certainly can't infer what they believe from documents that got leaked.

>>469348
Both of these are really compressed, when i go pixel-peeping the one on the right looks like it's got a slight image sharpening halo, which does not make it look like an original either. And you can make edits without making it more blurry, i edited your pic as a demonstration, see if you can spot my edit.
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 No.469352

>>469350
>You certainly can't infer what they believe from documents that got leaked.
They clearly assess that Ukraine is taking less losses than Russia, else they would not discuss it as such in internal documents.
>>469350
>And you can make edits without making it more blurry
Sure, but the fact is one of those didn't, and the rest of the leaks quote the same numbers.
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 No.469353

File: 1683939088702.png (381.22 KB, 800x533, ClipboardImage.png)

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/russian-federation/why-putin-needs-wagner
Why Putin Needs Wagner
<The Hidden Power Struggle Sustaining Russia’s Brutal Militia
>Russia has relied on informal and deniable military forces since the Stalin era.
>In Putin’s Russia, the more Prigozhin acts like a wicked court jester, the better.
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 No.469354

File: 1683939148490.mp4 (1.21 MB, 960x540, 6vjx1j.mp4)

>>469353
Relevant
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 No.469355

>>469353
wagnerd da gud guys?
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 No.469357

>>469334
>You're lying about Ukraine
>I know because Ukrainians told me
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 No.469358

>>469348
The one on the right looks fake. If you've ever taken a picture of text at an angle, you'd know that you don't get those nice, clean lines. The one on the left looks more in line with what you'd expect it to look.
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 No.469359

>>469352
>They clearly assess that Ukraine is taking less losses than Russia,
You can't know what they think. And this kinda sounds like you are accusing the western military of being incompetent by not having accurate intel on a war they are involved in at the level of military logistics.
>else they would not discuss it as such in internal documents.
We're not looking at an internal document, we're looking at a leaked document, and further more there's contradicting versions.

>Sure, but the fact is one of those didn't, and the rest of the leaks quote the same numbers.
This again, you assume the number that is being repeated the most is the correct one.
This is not sound reasoning. Truth isn't a popularity contest.

I'm going to tell you what i think.

The Russian military is better equipped than the Ukrainian one, they have the ability to conduct extensive missile strikes, and air-raids, they have more and newer mechanized divisions (like tanks and artillery) and on top of that the Russian military deployment also has more infantry troops and ammunition. Logically the larger an better equipped military is going to suffer fewer casualties.

There were claims that Russia was having problems supplying it's military, but after the 50th time claims that Russia had run out ammunition were refuted by massive missile and artillery bombardment, you can no longer attach any credibility to that sort of thing.

So the most likely explanation is the Russian losses are indeed low and the Ukrainians ones are high. And what we're arguing about here is a propaganda narrative that's designed to create support for the continuation of the war.

We have to understand that the powers that be want to continue this war and that's why they flood the ether with narratives that are supposed to make you come to the conclusions they desire. So you have to put up mental barriers that are proportional to the amount of narrative pushing powers they have in order to maintain a balanced view.

Look at the political power distribution, for the moment the neocons have enormous political power, and as long as that's the case, they can distribute their narratives much more effectively than any other political faction, and they can get away with more lying than other factions and that's why you need to compensate.

There are conflicts of interests too, look who benefits from the war and who doesn't. The big bourgeoisie bullshitting us to keep a racket going, that's pretty much a given. The war-profiteers will tell you what ever you need to hear in order to keep profiting. An you have to compensate for that as well, so narratives that lead the to the conclusion that the war should be continued are hence for suspicious.

Many of those narratives that seek to create the impression that the Russians are weak are designed to lower your resistance to warmongering, because warring against a week enemy carries with it the expectations of fewer sacrifices. The fact is that the Russians were much more resilient than the neocons said, this has been born out by the fact that the sanctions-war did not stop Russian operations in Ukraine. And the result was that there were much more sacrifices extracted from us. That weighs extremely heavily and we have to assume that narratives of Russian weakness are a tool that is being used to lower our guard against those that seek to harm our interests.

The last time we got factual information Russia was having about 10 times fewer losses than Ukraine. So a 10:1 K/D ratio favoring the Russians. This is now a few months out of date information. The Ukrainian losses were highest when they were pressing the attack, it may very well be that this K/D ratio lowered during the fighting on mostly stationary fronts. It's hard to tell, but what you claim is that a total inversion happened. That is extremely unlikely considering the declining state of Ukrainian military resources.

So there aren't any good reasons to believe the official story about Russian losses.
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 No.469360

File: 1683980399511.jpg (31.03 KB, 400x400, broseph stalin.jpg)

>>469353
>Russia has relied on informal and deniable military forces since the Stalin era.
So foreignaffair.com says Wagner is based for having Stalin's seal of approval ?
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 No.469361

>>469359
>And this kinda sounds like you are accusing the western military of being incompetent by not having accurate intel
I think the intel is accurate. You're the one presupposing that it must be wrong if it doesn't reflect high Ukrainian casualties. This is what they're treating as the data. That's the inly reason it's in those documents. Or fo you think there is a reason to put fake numbers in an intel report?
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 No.469362

>>469361
No you said that the version of the document-leak you blessed as the "truetrue" contained an accurate reflection of what western intel orgs think, and if that's wrong, then western intelligence is too. You won't even consider the possibility that they think something else than what is in those documents.

The implication is that intel orgs would be in line with the propagandists, but propaganda is usually wrong, and that would make the intel orgs look incompetent. You're so busy looking for authority validation of your story that you're willing to throw the intel orgs credibility under the buss.
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 No.469363

>>469362
>No you said that the version of the document-leak you blessed as the "truetrue" contained an accurate reflection of what western intel orgs think,
Yes. Else why would they print that on internal reports?
>and if that's wrong, then western intelligence is too. You won't even consider the possibility that they think something else than what is in those documents.
Well, what would be the reason to print incorrect information in their own intel docs?
>The implication is that intel orgs would be in line with the propagandists, but propaganda is usually wrong,
Or maybe it isn't propaganda, and it's just reality.
>You're so busy looking for authority validation of your story that you're willing to throw the intel orgs credibility under the buss.
Well, US intel called it before the invasion, even as people like you were denying it and saying it was a CIA hoax. You are presupposing that those numbers are wring because you just don't want to believe them. You offer no explanation as to why an intel report would deliberately be incorrect.
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 No.469364

>>469363
>Yes.
So if those docs turn out to be wrong you're basically saying that the intel orgs are incompetent.
>Else why would they print that on internal reports?
We don't even know for sure if the leaked documents are identical in contents to the internal documents. On top of that there are 2 contradicting versions. Where you just picked the one you find the most convenient, and declared it as the genuine one.

>Well, what would be the reason to print incorrect information in their own intel docs?
They could leak documents on purpose for counter espionage and mix true with false information in the hope it would fool the Russians. It could be any number of other things, like for example when organizations create official documentation there's always political pressures as to what goes into the official record. It could also be strategy, if you create an intelligence org you might want a hole layer of people who shuffle around bogus information that has no other purpose than tricking infiltrators to steal useless info.

>Or maybe it isn't propaganda, and it's just reality.
Kek, you're going with "a war without propaganda"
You can't be that naive.

>Well, US intel called it before the invasion, even as people like you were denying it and saying it was a CIA hoax.
US intel had been spreading so much FUD for such along time that it's completely normal that people would no longer trust them. Before the Ukraine happening kicked off, they tried to sell us on Adrien Zenz's tale about Uyghur extermination camps in China. They went along with a fictional genocide of 2 million people.

>You are presupposing that those numbers are wring because you just don't want to believe them.
I have no reason to believe your story which is more or less the same as the official narrative, and i have loads of reasons to not trust the official narrative.
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 No.469366

>>469364
>So if those docs turn out to be wrong you're basically saying that the intel orgs are incompetent.
Sure. If they're wrong by as much as you seem to be implying.
>We don't even know for sure if the leaked documents are identical in contents to the internal documents.
We can be reasonably sure. The leaker was doing it to flaunt his knowledge of the situation in Ukraine.
>They could leak documents on purpose for counter espionage and mix true with false information in the hope it would fool the Russians
The leaker shared it with a private server of simps. You're going to have to show some indication that this was deliberately planted.
>Kek, you're going with "a war without propaganda"
You can't be that naive.
I didn't say that. Stop arguing with imaginary people.
>Before the Ukraine happening kicked off, they tried to sell us on Adrien Zenz's tale about Uyghur extermination camps in China. They went along with a fictional genocide of 2 million people.
Yeah, but that is also something that is happening.
>I have no reason to believe your story which is more or less the same as the official narrative, and i have loads of reasons to not trust the official narrative.
And all of them ideological, not fact-based.
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 No.469367

>>469366
The leaker was very young and of low military rank, which raises the question how or why he was able to access secrets. This happenstance creates a certain suspicion, that he might have gotten access to the material because some of the higher ups wanted it to leak. And if that's the case those documents might not be entirely genuine, they might contain some infos that were planted as counter intelligence.

>Yeah, but that is also something that is happening.
No the Chinese certainly have not murdered 2 million Uyghurs. That claim was so preposterous, even the imperialist media had to admit it was wrong and publish retractions. If you are unable to spot these ridiculously transparent lies that is just more reason not to trust your story.
>>

 No.469368

>>469367
>The leaker was very young and of low military rank,
Plenty of intelligence analysts are. That's not out of the ordinary.
>This happenstance creates a certain suspicion, that he might have gotten access to the material because some of the higher ups wanted it to leak. And if that's the case those documents might not be entirely genuine, they might contain some infos that were planted as counter intelligence.
And you base this conjecture on what? Wishful thinking? The US was prepared to expose its own spying activities on enemies and allies alike, risk international embarrassment, and leak what seemed to be accurate Ukrainian unit locations simply to get you to believe that Russia is suffering high casualties?
>No the Chinese certainly have not murdered 2 million Uyghurs.
Good thing nobody is claiming that. It has always been about the cultural genocide being carried out.
>>

 No.469369

>>469368
It's not unprecedented that leaks like this happened on purpose, there is no point in denying the possibility.

>Good thing nobody is claiming that. It has always been about the cultural genocide being carried out.
What ever they mean with "cultural genocide" that's a different story.
They initially did make those claims about mass murders happening in extermination camps. They did the hole parade with satellite images and what not. Don't you dare try to memory hole this.
>>

 No.469370

>>469369
>It's not unprecedented that leaks like this happened on purpose, there is no point in denying the possibility.
I don't deny that there is a possibility that the US carefully crafted a conspiracy to leak info to a guardsman who then leaked that info to a small server, with the expectation that it would get out. I'm sure it's possible, but it is much less likely than said guardsman was simply leaking real shit gor internet clout among people who seemed not to give a fuck.
>What ever they mean with "cultural genocide" that's a different story.
That's the only story I've heard, and anyway we're talking about Ukraine.
>>

 No.469371

>>469331
>My experience has taught me to distrust everything that the media keeps repeating,
Yet you gobble up Putin's talking points. Go ahead and assume everything anti-Russia is lie. Even common sense would tell you it's not going well for them.
>>

 No.469372

Interview by guy that surrendered to drone earlier this month.
>>

 No.469373

>>469367
>The leaker was very young and of low military rank, which raises the question how or why he was able to access secrets.
He had access to the SIPRNet which is the military's classified internet. And like the regular internet it's stupendously difficult to keep things controlled and organized.
Network technologies are just inherently insecure, Manning did the very same thing with the Iraq War leaks. Just abused his network access to get files he wasn't supposed to access. It's as simple as navigating to websites on the SIPRNet you shouldn't
>>

 No.469375

>>469370
>it is much less likely than said guardsman was simply leaking real shit gor internet clout among people who seemed not to give a fuck.
But he'd only need to show a few pages to prove he has access to it, not the whole 100 page document. From the start, it seemed like a counterintelligence op.
>>

 No.469376

>>469375
So you're saying releasing info damaging to the US government makes it more likely that this was a counterintelligence operation?
>>

 No.469377

File: 1684074087126.jpg (179.22 KB, 1024x1024, 1684063743119089m.jpg)

New update
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 No.469378

>>469377
Source: our ass.
>>

 No.469379

>>469370
>I don't deny that there is a possibility
Great so you can stop claiming that those leaked documents should be treated as an authoritative view from US intel.
Obviously there still is the matter that one version of those documents flat out contradicts your claims. But i guess there is no point in discussing that. You'll just continue to hand-wave everything that contradicts your narrative as a fake.
>That's the only story I've heard
The false story about the extermination camps was all over mainstream media, it was nearly impossible to avoid it, you either have amnesia or you're full of shit.
>>

 No.469380

>>469371
>Yet you gobble up Putin's talking points.
Not really, you just declared everything that doesn't toe the official line as "Putin's talking points"
Every critic of the neocon crusade gets labeled a "Kremlin Puppet", getting McCarthyismed has turned into a badge of honor at this point.

This shit began when the unhinged Russia-gate conspiracy "theory" went from fringe lunacy to full blown mass-psychosis.

Maybe it has to be said more often but when people disagree with you, they might just think that your opinions are wrong.
>>

 No.469381

>>469378
UK MoD, actually. They have been right so far.
>>

 No.469382

>>469379
>Great so you can stop claiming that those leaked documents should be treated as an authoritative view from US intel.
No. There is also a possibility that a large man is about to make sweet love to you from under your desk, but you would be stupid to take it seriously. It's just not credible.
>You'll just continue to hand-wave everything that contradicts your narrative as a fake.
I mean it's really weird to have fucked spacing and shifted digits, especially when those numbers don't appear anywhere else. But we will know they are right or wrong in a few months time. I'm quite confident that I am correct.
>The false story about the extermination camps was all over mainstream media, it was nearly impossible to avoid it, you either have amnesia or you're full of shit.
Then post a source.
>>

 No.469383

>>469381
lol
>>

 No.469384

>>469380
>Maybe it has to be said more often but when people disagree with you, they might just think that your opinions are wrong.
Most people in the west disagree with you. Are you wrong? Most leaders around the world disagree with Putin. Is he wrong? If we're going to go with truth by popularity contest, then the crowd is obviously on my side.
>>

 No.469385

>>469373
It is hard to believe they haven't build a user access-privilege model, and rely on user abstinence.

I was assuming that everybody in those intel orgs would be using state of the art security techniques, like for example those little usb-dongles that store keys. They could encrypt every single file they have and then manage access by only giving people the decryption keys for the files they have clearance. They could do a layered security thing where they also have normal user file access privileges, to make it possible to revoke access quickly, while they change the encryption keys for the files.

Even if they have a huge system legacy burden and organizational momentum that counter-acts implementing newer security features, it still hard to believe. Are you sure this is actually true ?
>>

 No.469386

>>469384
Loool. This retarded volunteer glownog actually believes this
>>

 No.469387

>>469384
>Most people in the west disagree with you
That's probably false, but even if that were the case, that wouldn't matter, truth is not based on popularity.
>Are you wrong?
You should ask you self that.
>Most leaders around the world disagree with Putin.
No Russia is less diplomatically isolated than the West at this point. One of the blow-back-effects of the Neocon Ukraine proxy war, was that Russia gained a lot of diplomatic capital, at the expense of the west.
>If we're going to go with truth by popularity contest,
So you're aware that your bullshitting, obviously what's true is true regardless of how many people believe it.
>then the crowd is obviously on my side.
At best you could say that the western propaganda apparatus has managed to fool a big chunk of the western population. However most People in the world live outside of the west and about 80% of the global population sees the Ukraine war as a conflict between Russia and NATO. With Russia being the one on the defense.
>>

 No.469388

File: 1684095653100.jpg (85.96 KB, 960x938, 20230409_133356.jpg)

>>469385
>It is hard to believe they haven't build a user access-privilege model, and rely on user abstinence.
They do, but like anything it's got to be managed and maintenanced. They have not said anything about hacking so most likely he just used the access he was given.
And intel analyst need access to sensitive Intel regardless, how is the military going to know its ass from its elbows without someone somewhere reviewing everything.
>>

 No.469389

>>469380
>Not really, you just declared everything that doesn't toe the official line as "Putin's talking points"

No it's because the positive Russian spin that you Ztards parrot is so comically myopic that it doesn't even pass any incredulity test.
They've have retreated and been defeated time and again and they're still there after a year. There should be some pretty negative stories but instead of telling at least plausible lies you attack all your critics as Western stooges and fools that don't understand how "Russia is actually winning".
>>

 No.469390

>>469380
>Every critic of the neocon crusade gets labeled a "Kremlin Puppet",
Niqqa the Maidan protests proved that Ukraine wants to be in the EU.
You and Putin are just mad that when the pro EU prez they elected cucked them, they didn't just lie down and take it like Americans.
It's no conspiracy, everyone knows Russia would use Ukraine as a colony and base. And fuck all that noise about the USSR developing Ukraine, they did the same economic imperialist bullshit too. But at least they were nominally socialist, Putin's gangsta oligarchy doesn't even pretend that they're going to use Ukraine for anything other than a cum rag. That's why they keep harping on all this deNazification shit, like their own country isn't filled with fascists.
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 No.469391

File: 1684097557171.jpg (184.75 KB, 770x770, INTERACTIVE-UN-Vote-Ukrain….jpg)

>>469387
>That's probably false
All polling data suggests otherwise.
>You should ask you self that.
I have, and I have come to the conclusion that I'm right. I called Kherson, Kiev, and the invasion, mostly because I listened to actual intelligence experts and not some vatnik online.
>No Russia is less diplomatically isolated than the West at this point
See picrel, retard.
>So you're aware that your bullshitting, obviously what's true is true regardless of how many people believe it.
Yes, and the truth is that Russia has an incompetent military that is degrading every day, and they're going to lose this war.
>At best you could say that the western propaganda apparatus has managed to fool a big chunk of the western population.
Or, they just disagree with you, ever think of that. :^)
>However most People in the world live outside of the west and about 80% of the global population sees the Ukraine war as a conflict between Russia and NATO. With Russia being the one on the defense.
And you have polling data to back this up, or it's what you really want to believe? By the way, what is Russia defending itself from by invading and annexing parts of Ukraine?
>>

 No.469392

>>469391
>Inb4 zigga cope about the population of authoritarian nations supporting Russia is higher.
Yeah, as though anyone is elected in Russia, China, NK.
>>

 No.469393

File: 1684101347061.jpeg (288.97 KB, 1200x659, f4ea5d1d2482b5bccace59c5c….jpeg)

>>469392
That's the best part. China and India voted against Russia in the most recent resolution.
>>

 No.469394

>>469377
Real update
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 No.469395

>>469394
Based Mercouris poster
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 No.469396

File: 1684104376788.jpg (138.95 KB, 1191x645, most of the world did not ….jpg)

>>469391
People in the west do not want the sanctions and the economic turmoil it has brought on them. Despite the 24/7 media onslaught misleading people about the war.

The voices for peace and diplomacy are dampened, while the voices for war are magnified. You're not measuring anything genuine, at most you're measuring the effects of propaganda manipulation. The media has failed it's democratic duty if it isn't giving people the information that they need to understand where their material interests lie. The Demos has no stake in "defeating Russia" , that hole crusade against Russia benefits a small special interest group at the expense of everybody else.

Russia won the diplomacy game hands down, and you're coping about it, UN resolutions are symbolic. The real substance is whether or not countries implemented the economic sanctions the west wanted. News-flash the rest of the world mostly didn't do that.
>>

 No.469397

>>469394
>>469396
>People in the west do not want the sanctions and the economic turmoil it has brought on them.
Polls say otherwise. You can keep coping, though.
>Russia won the diplomacy game hands down, and you're coping about it, UN resolutions are symbolic. The real substance is whether or not countries implemented the economic sanctions the west wanted.
So the only countries sanctioning Russia are the richest and most powerful countries on earth, and this is somehow a win for Russia? You're a fucking retard.
>>

 No.469398

>>469388
>And intel analyst need access to sensitive Intel regardless, how is the military going to know its ass from its elbows without someone somewhere reviewing everything.
I would disagree with that.

Organizations tend to work better when the ass doesn't know where the elbow is at. Most people aren't just disinterested in the bigger picture, they abhor being confronted with it. Of course someone somewhere needs to look at the bigger picture to make sure all the disparate organizational parts mesh together, but they usually don't need any of the specific details. Organizations that have highly compartmentalized information are just as effective at generating collective intelligence, and do come with lots of upsides.
>>

 No.469399

>>469398
>Organizations tend to work better when the ass doesn't know where the elbow is at.
What do you think is a good example of such an organization?
>>

 No.469400

>>469389
>it's because the positive Russian spin that you Ztards parrot
You can't be taken seriously if you paint all the criticisms of the neocon crusade as outsider opinion.

>They've have retreated
No they haven't the Russian military is still inside of Ukraine slowly dismantling Ukrainian combat power, how can you still not see that they aren't in it for the territory, they are waging a war of attrition. They are husbanding their troops while the Ukrainian forces are being squandered on defending militarily meaningless territory, solely for political reasons.

>>469390
>the Maidan protests proved that Ukraine
The Ukrainians certainly weren't protesting to become the blood sacrifice for US imperial ambition to impose a costly war on Russia.

>they keep harping on all this deNazification shit
That's about the CIA operation in Ukraine, they are going after the troops the CIA trained, can't you read between the lines ?
I think the more important question is why does the CIA gravitate toward working with the worst people, it's not just Ukrainian Nazis, in the middle east they went with the most backwards religious fundamentalists they could find. Why aren't they working with nicer people ? The Russians managed to work with lots of soc-dems and communists in the Donbass militias, they have much fewer problems with ethnic hatred or sadistic excesses.
>>

 No.469401

>>469397
>Polls say people like inflation
doubt
>So the only countries sanctioning Russia are the richest and most powerful countries on earth
Kek now that you got called out on your Bullshit, you're pivoting your narrative. First you went with "the hole world opposes Russia", but when it is pointed out to you that most of the world noped out when it came to going along with western sanctions, all of a sudden the hole world becomes irrelevant. You can thump your chest about "muh most powerful countries" all you want the sanction weapon was a dud, it did more damage to the west than it did to Russia.
>>

 No.469402

File: 1684111273585.jpg (66.03 KB, 274x356, 20230324_154520.jpg)

>>469398
>Meandering word salad with zero substance.
Gawd you are a pseud. Regardless it's perfectly reasonable to believe he had access to the intell he did.
Since this is all conjecture based on incomplete information you ziggers are just going to point to the gaps and say "AH! SEE THAT'S WHY IT'S WRONG" and never argue in good faith.
You're not the only person who understands that the gov fakes leaks. Your coping ass will never fucking come up with plausible theory as to why they'd fake a leak other then "NATO's evil!".
If you weren't so busy being butt hurt about the embarrassing casualties on the Russia side you'd have speciald that the leaks also say that US special forces are in Ukraine. Boots on the ground isn't something the average US citizen is aware of. But let me guess, that parts true because you like it. But wait why would the US admit there's boots on the ground when they've repeatedly said there won't be.
>>

 No.469403

>>469400
>You can't be taken seriously if you paint all the criticisms of the neocon crusade as outsider opinion.
Your echo chamber has made you super out of touch. There's popular support for the Ukraine war, tankies just BS themselves into believing there's a big because they spew bullshit the most persistently. You are just like /pol/ in that way.
>The Ukrainians certainly weren't protesting to become the blood
>She made me do it.
The logic of a wife beater.
>>469396
You can be against the war and against sanctions my lying vatnik
>>

 No.469404

>>469403
*
>The Ukrainians certainly weren't protesting to become the blood sacrifice for US imperial ambition to impose a costly war on Russia.
>>

 No.469405

File: 1684119337847.jpg (129.07 KB, 1125x941, FwIKN8QXoAAu7gi[1].jpg)

Well, somebody is falling out of a window soon. It's probably not true, but Putin is paranoid enough to believe it.
>>

 No.469406

>>469400
The CIA has been backing Nazis and fascists practically since its inception. The CIA was responsible for Operation Gladio, it was reponsible for the terror campaigns in Greece, and oh yes, it was responsible for propping up Stepan Bandera as a leader-in-exile of Ukrainian nationalists until he was finally assassinated.
>>

 No.469407

>>469406
> Operation Gladio, it was reponsible for the terror campaigns in Greece
That's just a lie, lol.
>>

 No.469408

>>469407
You know it takes 10 minutes to look this up.
>>

 No.469409

>>469408
I did. You're making shit up again.
>>

 No.469410

>>469406
>The CIA has been backing Nazis and fascists practically since its inception.
I know the CIA adsorbed the eastern wing of the Nazi intelligence network after WW2, presumably because they were useful for the cold war. There might have been some ideological contamination from that.

>The CIA was responsible for Operation Gladio, it was reponsible for the terror campaigns in Greece, and oh yes, it was responsible for propping up Stepan Bandera as a leader-in-exile of Ukrainian nationalists until he was finally assassinated.

I know all of those things, but all that stuff happened so long ago. You'd think all of the ideological baggage had faded, and the old practices had been retired.
>>

 No.469411

>>469403
>There's popular support for the Ukraine war
The opposition of the Ukraine war is being suppressed. With censorship and intimidation.
The only real supporters the neocon crusaders have, are few pathological liberals who are motivated by rampant russophobic racism, and careerist ambitions in the imperial machine.

The rest of the population is sick of the economic hardships and violations of civil liberties this war has brought.

The imperialist bourgeoisie is sacrificing Ukrainians and they are admitting it in their slogans:
<"We'll fight Russia to the last Ukrainian"
<"We will win with American bullets and Ukrainian blood."

If you want to criticize Russia, you might be able to lament that they didn't find another method to counter the CIA's covert war in Ukraine. But you can't pretend that the neocons didn't manufacture this war. The blood is on their hands. And it won't wash off no matter how much they demonize Russia in the media.
>>

 No.469412

>>469402
It used to be that the big media companies only lied by omission. It used to be that they didn't say anything that's factually wrong, but they leave out certain details to create a false impression. In that environment it was possible to figure out what was really going on, just by looking at enough media sources to get all the relevant information.

However that has changed, the media has published big bold face lies, that are not factual but fictional and there is a degrees of censorship that is undermining opposing viewpoints. In that environment the only rely-able information you can get from reading the big media, is their intentions.

So when they say for example that Russia was weakened by lots of losses. They aren't saying anything about the Russian military, they are merely stating:
- their support for warmongering by arms-shipments to Ukraine
- their opposition to diplomacy

The logic behind this: if Russia was weakened it's possible that continuing the warmongering could lead to victory. If Russia wasn't weakened then victory is not possible and the only real option is diplomacy, because sending more weapons to Ukraine will do nothing but cause more senseless slaughter that at best delays an inevitable defeat.

I no longer consider the big media as independent, not even by liberal bourgeois standards where independent still meant pushing the interests of a particular faction of the bourgeoisie. The rule is now they are stenographers of power, and the exception is that they publish journalism.

The political strata in the west now thinks they have politically over-committed to this shitfest and can't back out anymore. And that's likely wrong, the people they can fool with the propaganda circus can just be distracted with a different spectacle and Ukraine will become yesterdays news. The people like me who won't buy into their propaganda no matter how much they crank the volume are going to drop the issue the moment we get a cease-fire that holds and the killing ceases as well as the idiotic self-mutilating sanctions can be abandoned. The only opposition they will face are going to be from the war-profiteers, because they are the only ones who benefit from this shit.
>>

 No.469413

>>469411
>The opposition of the Ukraine war is being suppressed. With censorship and intimidation.
Yes, in Russia, where you can't call it a war and can be arrested for protesting against it.
>>

 No.469414

File: 1684161014763.mp4 (7.7 MB, 848x480, 1lf0ol.mp4)

Russian soldiers practicing comradery by taking a wounded man's shit and leaving him to die.
>>

 No.469415

>>469413
<Oh no, did someone criticize the neocons, quick point the finger at the big P.
Your too obvious.
>>

 No.469416

>>469415
>criticize the neocons
Bush has been out of office since 2009. You're heavily projecting. In Russia, there is actual censorship and clamping down of civil liberties. How are you going to cope when the next breakthrough happens? Russia is going to lose and be forced to withdraw from Ukraine. It's not the end of the road, but we can see it from here.
>>

 No.469417

File: 1684167741077.png (11.78 KB, 348x238, look over there.png)

>>469416
The neocons had to yield a lot of political ground after the Bush years because they really fucked it up, but it didn't end with Bush. The Biden, Blinken and Nuland gang are still in the neocon category, they just switched tracks from "War on Terror" to "War on Russia", but all the special interest groups they represent are the same, and the methods they use are fairly similar too.

Whatever does or doesn't happen in Russia with regards to civil liberties isn't relevant here (based on a superficial check it seems western state media and social media tech-giants have not been censored in Russia so you might be lying) You're just bringing this up as a criticism deflection mechanism.

You have to compare civil liberties in the west of today, to the west of a decade ago.
It's a dramatic deterioration.

You have to make the comparison over time not with other places, that way you can see the direction of development. So you can see whether it's getting better or worse.
>>

 No.469418

>>469417
> The Biden, Blinken and Nuland gang are still in the neocon category
No. Their political outlook on the world is completely differnt. You have no idea what neoconservatism is. Just because one shares the idea that democracy should be preserved does not mean that that person is a neocon. Secondly, neocons were not content with rules-based order, something which is paramount to the Biden administration. Just because you want to equate them does not make it so. It just makes you look ignorant about American political thought.
>they just switched tracks from "War on Terror" to "War on Russia"
The "war on Russia" isn't happening. The war is in Ukraine and instigated by Russia, which chose to invade. The war would end if they would withdraw their troops. Ukraine isn't going to invade them, and neither is NATO.
>Whatever does or doesn't happen in Russia with regards to civil liberties isn't relevant here
Oh, it's completely relevant when you're describing word for word what is happening there and assigning it to the US and the rest of the free nations, where it isn't happening.
> seems western state media and social media tech-giants have not been censored in Russia so you might be lying
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/4/russia-restricts-access-to-several-western-media-websites
Literally the opposite.
>You have to compare civil liberties in the west of today, to the west of a decade ago.
It's a dramatic deterioration.
Can you name some examples?
>You have to make the comparison over time not with other places, that way you can see the direction of development. So you can see whether it's getting better or worse.
So now you're talking about the long-term state of things, and not censorship because of this war. Glad to know you're admitting you're full of shit. Russian censorship and prosecutions are directly caused by the state of the war, with new laws being passed in 2022 for this exact purpose. Can you name a law passed in the US to censor mentions of this war? Can you name laws that would jail you for criticizing US policy in Ukraine? You can't. You're projecting. Russia is a shithole that is going to lose this war and continue to be a shithole afterwards. Instead of learning from it, you faggots will just cry about how the west did this to Russia, ignoring that Russia started this war by invading its neighbor.
>>

 No.469421

File: 1684176153646.png (359.19 KB, 500x345, batman rubbing his chin.png)

>>469418
It's fascinating that you still think you're convincing anyone after an entire year of this bullshit. I hope they pay you well.
>>

 No.469422

>>469421
>vatnik thinks the only way someone could disagree with him is if he got paid
I'm always impressed by the level of delusion you "people" display. It would be impressive if it weren't so pathetic.
>>

 No.469423

File: 1684177148300.png (150.27 KB, 500x447, pure ideology.png)

>>469418
Good grief you ate all the ruling ideology propaganda and now you're regurgitating it.

The Neocons are just a subset of imperialists who want to propagate US hegemony by brute force, they usually represent the arms industry and a selection of big bourgeois capitalist like finance-imperialists and transnational corporations. They are not in anyway related to efforts of preserving democracy lol. That's Pure Ideology.

>rules-based order
I'm not sure what exactly this means but it doesn't mean principled adherence to international law, when the politicians talk about this it largely equates to US influence/dominance.

>The "war on Russia" isn't happening.
Fine it's a "proxy war on Russia"
Don't tell me this isn't a proxy war, when the US and EU are basically funding the Ukrainian national budget, are supplying most of the weapons, troop training and battlefield intelligence.

>Can you name some examples?
<of dramatic deterioration of civil liberties
Assange now sits in a torture dungeon for reporting on war-crimes, Manning was imprisoned for being a journalistic source. Snowden had to go into exile for revealing mass privacy violations. All of these people spoke truth to power exercising civil rights that are fundamental to a democracy. And they're being made examples out off to intimidate others. In Germany some people were persecuted for reporting from Ukraine as front-line reporters. The US and UK judicial systems have creeping changes in the law that are slowly transforming the principle of innocent until proven guilty into it's opposite.

Mass privacy invasion have become worse, both from state and private spying. There are attempts at criminalizing technological privacy in the US with the "RESTRICT" and "Earn It" legislation. The EU has a slightly better legislation on privacy but it implements website censorship. The internet tech-platforms are algorithmically down-ranking anti-war speech with soft-censorship. There also is blatant hard censorship when something too inconvenient to ruling class interests gains traction. And there are efforts to build an ideological enforcement instrument like an Orwellian Ministry of truth , that's now being called "fact-checking for 'dis-information' " Which seeks to create a truth as a diktat system.

In some countries Facebook is now telling users that if they post links to Simor Hersh's revelations about the Nordstream2 pipelines bombings, they're being informed that their posts will get filtered for wrong-think. Then there also is massive amounts of astroturfing going on, by both private and state actors. This seeks to drown-out the organic formation of a civil democratic general intellect and displace it with narrative control. Identity politics has been weaponized to attack advocacy for the interest of labor.

The list goes on

>We can't have civil liberties because Russia bad
Nope that's stupid
>>

 No.469424

>>469423
>Assange now sits in a torture dungeon for reporting on war-crimes
He isn't a US citizen, and last I checked, he wasn't being prosecuted by the US.
>Manning
What Manning did was illegal under existing US law. That didn't happen in the last 20 years. That's been the case ever since we've had classified information and regulation thereof. You don't just leak classified material and get away with it.
>Snowden had to go into exile for revealing mass privacy violations.
What he did was also illegal under existing law. Now new laws would have been required to prosecute him, nor were they passed. You could be prosecuted for what he did in the 80s.
> All of these people spoke truth to power exercising civil rights that are fundamental to a democracy. And they're being made examples out off to intimidate others.
You don't have a right to leak classified information. There is a process to it, and there are laws to protect whistleblowers. These people broke the existing law. This has never been legal to do.
>In Germany some people were persecuted for reporting from Ukraine as front-line reporters.
This is a lie. I'm familiar with this person, and they were not prosecuted.
>The US and UK judicial systems have creeping changes in the law that are slowly transforming the principle of innocent until proven guilty into it's opposite.
Provide an example.
>Mass privacy invasion have become worse, both from state and private spying.
I could give you that, but this has been the case since 2001. It isn't new to the war in Ukraine, which was your original claim. Furthermore the USA PATRIOT Act is no longer law. If anything, this is a win for Civil Rights.
> There are attempts at criminalizing technological privacy in the US with the "RESTRICT" and "Earn It" legislation.
Is it law, though? Plenty of crazy shit gets proposed in congress.
>The internet tech-platforms are algorithmically down-ranking anti-war speech with soft-censorship.
Care to show evidence of this?
>here also is blatant hard censorship when something too inconvenient to ruling class interests gains traction
Name an example. I will not discuss things with you that you only nebulously allude to. Name examples or get the fuck out.
>And there are efforts to build an ideological enforcement instrument like an Orwellian Ministry of truth , that's now being called "fact-checking for 'dis-information' "
>NOO, STOP CALLING OUT MY LIES!!!!11one!
Fact-checking is good. It prevents disinformation that is constantly spouted, especially on the right. The problem you seem to have with it is that generally people see value in factual reporting and not whatever made-up bullshit you want to be the truth. It should also be noted that this is not censorship, and that it is not being imposed by a government body.
>In some countries Facebook is now telling users that if they post links to Simor Hersh's revelations about the Nordstream2 pipelines bombings, they're being informed that their posts will get filtered for wrong-think.
Well yeah, because it's misinformation. Seymour Hersh is demonstrably wrong and cannot say what ships were or were not in the area. An actual independent analyst by the name of Oliver Alexander did a thorough job of taking apart Hersh's claims. Here's his substack.
https://oalexanderdk.substack.com/
He even contacted Hersh, and Hersh just replied unbelievable shit like being able to turn OSINT off, like that makes any sense.
>Then there also is massive amounts of astroturfing going on, by both private and state actors.
Provide evidence that this is astroturfing and not just people who disagree with you.
>Nope that's stupid
What's really stupid is saying that the US and Europe are clamping down on civil liberties because of the war in Ukraine, failing to provide a single example, and then just assuming people are going to agree with you. You're a fucking retard, and it shows.
>>

 No.469425

File: 1684180904417.png (512.77 KB, 256x256, reallynogsthenoodle.png)

>>469424
>last I checked, he wasn't being prosecuted by the US.
How could someone this ignorant have stumbled onto this board?
>>

 No.469426

>>469424
Welcome back Agent Smith! Happy to see you posting herw again.
>>

 No.469428

>>469425
>How could someone this ignorant have stumbled onto this board?
It's liberal sophistry, they don't look at facts, only 2nd hand ideologically-laden "news" articles.

>London CNN — UK Home Secretary Priti Patel has signed an order to extradite WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange to the United States, where he faces espionage charges, in a decision his organization said marked a “dark day for press freedom.”
https://edition.cnn.com/2022/06/17/uk/uk-julian-assange-extradition-priti-patel-intl-gbr/index.html

Now he's going to blacklist CNN on his router, can't have bits of reality slip through.
>>

 No.469429

>>469424
>Sent from Elgin AFB
>>

 No.469430

>>469415
>Don't support the slaughter of civilians and children in an imperialist land grab? NEOCON!
>Ib4 NATO made me do it.
>>

 No.469432

>>469423
>There is no empirical data, only ideology
Zizek wreckers strike again.
>>

 No.469433

>>469412
>You can't trust Big Media!
>But you can trust me, a completely random nobody on the internet that just so happens to be towing the Russian line. Obviously I'm unbiased because In said so!
Ebin
>>

 No.469435

>>469430
This is a psychopathic understanding of reality. You're not on the right side of history if you manage to instigate a war while shifting the blame on the other side.

All the neocons knew that Russia would not let them get away with NATO-expansion-creep when it comes to Ukraine. Biden even said this explicitly in a speech ~20 years ago. They knew that eventually Russia would forcefully pacify the Donbass civil war if the CIA kept supplying Ukrainian fascist paramilitary groups with funding, weapons and combat-training. And yet they went ahead with all of the above anyway.

They know that sending more weapons to Ukraine won't help Ukraine win, they know it's just going to prolong the slaughter, and yet they keep poring gasoline into the fire.

They are warmongers and pointing the finger at Russia won't absolve them.
>>

 No.469436

File: 1684258050294.jpg (103.19 KB, 372x372, lenin grin tea.jpg)

>>469432
>Noooo don't point out my ideological bias.
>>

 No.469437

File: 1684258796120.jpg (58.76 KB, 421x416, choice speak truth to powe….jpg)

>>469433
>You can't trust Big Media!
exactly
>All anti-war criticism is Russian propaganda.
>All the anti-war people are Kremlin bots.
Hey cool it with the Russia-gate conspiracy delusions.
>>

 No.469438

>>469436
>I can ignore reality because I accused you of wrongthink.
This is why MLism only works with peasants. It's too retarded to work on anyone else.
>>

 No.469439

>>469437
>I'm just going to call everything the Media says is a lie.
They said Russia left Kiev, ALSO A LIE?
>>

 No.469440

>>469438
Your premise here is that politics is about tricking people. That tells us about your state of mind.
Maybe communists are so bad at tricking people because that isn't their goal.
>>469439
Technically the Russian Federation never went into Kiev, so technically they also never left. You kinda bungled that strawmen.
Not sure what this has to do with the neocons calling everybody who opposes their warmongering as a Russian puppet.
>>

 No.469441

>>469435
The only psychopath is you vatniks. Killing, maiming and making homeless millions of people because they might join NATO and the EU, oh and because they're Nazis because the government was driven to desperation by the previous two invasions to rely on fascists which consist of like two companies but you stretch to be the whole government.
>>

 No.469442

>>469441
You live in a fantasy world.

The reality is that:

If the decision makers in the west had gone with the advice of the anti-war leftists and took the diplomatic route. There would not have been a big war and Ukraine would have lost neither people, territory, economy nor a big chunk of it's militarily. There would be less economic chaos in the world and the west would not have lost so much influence on the global stage.

Instead they went with the Neocons, because those promised that they could bring Russia to heel. But they couldn't, all they could do was sacrifice Ukrainians by the truck-load in a vein attempt at eroding Russian combat power. And in doing so they alienated a significant part of the world.

You're expectation where peace is contingent on other countries just falling in line with the empire instead of pursuing their own interests and guarding their security red lines, that's delusional. That never happens.
>>

 No.469444

File: 1684280609680.jpg (48.69 KB, 622x628, 20230426_233512.jpg)

>>469442
Bitch please, you live in a fantasy world where Dick Cheney still secretly pulls all the strings.
Russia is a bass ackwards kleptocracy that no one wants to be a part of. No one give af about NATO's violations of Russia's fucking security when they can have blue jeans and VWs.
Ukraine wants to join the EU beacsue it's far richer than Russia, and they wanted to join NATO to keep Russia from invading them and keeping them out of the EU.
It is a complete and utter fucking cope that this is all a velvet revolution and everyone is clamoring to join Russia because well the US invaded Iraq dontcha know. No one gives a fuck about that, they care about money.
Go ahead and cry about everyone that states the obvious is a neocon.
>>

 No.469445

>>469440
>Your premise here is that politics is about tricking people.
Haha, no I said MLism is about tricking people.
>>

 No.469446

>>469440
>Technically the Russian Federation never went into Kiev, so technically they also never left. You kinda bungled that strawmen.
>Actually their invasion of Kiev blew up in their face, checkmate Neocon!
Checkmate indeed.
>>

 No.469447

>>469418
Based
>>

 No.469448

File: 1684283118604.png (309.33 KB, 680x594, How do you do, fellow kids.png)

>>469444
>Bitch please
>>

 No.469449

>>469402
>Vatniks lie even when the truth would serve them better.
Many such cases!
>>

 No.469450

>>469444
>Dick Cheney still secretly pulls all the strings.
You don't seem to grasp that these power-brokers are interchangeable.

>Russia bad
No demonizing Russia doesn't actually justify any of the things the neocons do. You can't go along with their logic of manufacturing enemies as a means of fake-legitimizing their politics.

>Ukraine wants to join the EU beacsue it's far richer than Russia, and they wanted to join NATO to keep Russia from invading them and keeping them out of the EU.

This is rather confused, I would say that the western part off Ukraine probably want at least some of those things. While the Eastern part of Ukraine most definitely doesn't. But you can't say that countries have a right to join NATO, because Russia tried to join NATO in 2000 and they weren't granted the right.

We have to be realistic about what NATO is. It's not a defensive pact, because 100% of NATO joint military engagements were offensive. And NATO is dominated by US foreign policy. What you call "Ukraine joining NATO" would in reality be more accurately described as the US creating force-projection potential in yet another country. You can see the effects of NATO on the EU, it creates leverage for the US to influence EU foreign policy.

You can't really blame the Russians for not wanting US force projection potential in a strategically vulnerable spot. You are still trapped in your fantasy-land that presupposes special privileges for the empire. If the shoe were on the other foot and Russia would be militarizing a country in the US's core security zone, we'd be having another Cuba crisis and humanity would be at the brink of nuclear annihilation again.

You are not being realistic about Ukrainian security either, you are trying to define Ukrainian security as a negation of Russian security. That's "how to start a war 101". Look what actually happened, the neocon policies did not preserve peace and they certainly did not preserve Ukrainian security. Look at reality none of this has materially improved security for Ukrainians, it did the exact opposite.

>everyone is clamoring to join Russia because well the US invaded Iraq dontcha know
I have no idea where this is coming from, but since you brought it up, yeah the 2003 Iraq war probably played a role in pushing Iran and Syria into Russia's corner.

>Go ahead and cry about everyone that states the obvious is a neocon.
This is you having such an extreme degree of ideological mind-warp going on that you actually think that your views are the "obvious"
>>

 No.469451

>>469446
So in your view the Russians should have smashed Kiev like the US smashed Baghdad. As in insufficient brutality = weakness.

I would say that logic is probably wrong.
>>

 No.469453

>>469451
Haha there's no question about should. They COULDN'T capture Kiev. Their entire airborne forces ate shit because of it
>>

 No.469456

>>469453
All thanks to the Ghost of Kyiv, I bet.
>>

 No.469460

>>469451
Brutality isn't what wins battles. Russians are tactically and strategically incompetent and that is why they failed. They certainly wasted no time in killing civilians.
>>

 No.469464

>>469453
>>469460
I think the Russians are going about this with a less brutal approach because that wins them a hefty diplomacy bonus in Africa and Asia. Also Ukraine is right next to them, it's not like the US in Iraq, when the war ends they don't go home to the other side of the planet.

It's not like they can't level a city, they proved that in Grozny during the Chechen War. At the time the UN called it "the most destroyed city on earth".
>>

 No.469470

>>469464
>I think the Russians are going about this with a less brutal approach
>This is what vatniks actually believe
It would be funny, if it weren't so retarded.
>>

 No.469472

File: 1684407089797.jpg (459.66 KB, 1200x1200, 1684399852965866.jpg)

New briefing just dripped.
>>

 No.469473

>>469470
Maybe you're just some kind of liberal who lives in a nafo news bubble, and in that bubble Putin is depicted as the ultimate villain. Which would be robbing you of perspective. The reality is that Putin is definitely still somewhat keeping the breaks on the Russian military. Go read what Dmitry Medvedev (the previous president of the Russian Federation) writes on his Twitter account, if you want to know what the hardliners in Russia would like to do. Maybe that will give you some perspective.
>>

 No.469474

The Russians knocked out a Patriot battery in Kiev. And the Ukrainian solution is to ban Ukrainians from filming the sky.

https://invidious.snopyta.org/channel/UCwGpHa6rMLjSSCBlckm5khw
>>

 No.469475

>>469473
I know what they would like to do because they already tried. Russians have a shit military, and they cannot fix it. Mendevev is just coping online.
>Muh nafo boogeyman
Kek
>>

 No.469476

File: 1684415635456.jpg (88.94 KB, 1024x764, 1684347830085899m.jpg)

>>469474
Is that why they arrested they creators of said missile? This is obviously what you do when something works. Can I see pics of said destroyed Patriot battery?
>>

 No.469477

Russia is winning NATO's Long War in Ukraine

https://invidious.snopyta.org/watch?v=FIBrSh-6wMs
>>

 No.469478

File: 1684417778966.webm (5.08 MB, 3235x1280, Russia destroys Patriot-b….webm)

>>469475
psychotic nafo be like:
If Russia would unleash it's military, descending like a tsunami of destruction upon Ukraine you'd be screaming bloody murder.
If Russia pulls it's punches to limit the destruction, you try to taunt them by implying restraint = weakness.

>>469476
Here's the video of the Patriot Battery in Kiev getting knocked out, so the Russian missiles seem to be working.
>>

 No.469479

>>469478
>If Russia would unleash it's military, descending like a tsunami of destruction upon Ukraine you'd be screaming bloody murder.
No. I just don't like war crimes and illegal wars of imperialism.
>If Russia pulls it's punches to limit the destruction, you try to taunt them by implying restraint = weakness.
Russia didn't pull punches. They're incompetent and cope by killing civilians.
How are you this fucking dumb?
>>

 No.469480

>>469478
Can I see the video without the timestamp removed? Can I see the destroyed battery?
>>

 No.469484

File: 1684433264954.jpg (125.62 KB, 829x800, no takt.jpg)

Good grief the German Chancellor lacks tact, he went all Slobber Suzuki in public.
>>

 No.469485

>>469484
>Slava Ukraini is le Nazi
>Slava Rossia is not
Shut up, retard. The phrase was around before. A simple Google search shows that. One might wonder why you have to lie for everything.
>>

 No.469486

>>469484
First as tragedy, then as farce.
>>

 No.469487

>>469485
Have you ever tried a different method of persuading people? You've become so predictable that it's almost as if you're following a set of instructions…
>>

 No.469489

>>469487
I'm not trying to persuade you. If you could be persuaded by information you wouldn't be a vatnik.
>>

 No.469490

>>469489
lmao based
>>

 No.469491

File: 1684463969145.png (67.37 KB, 649x206, NAFO_Trannie_jannie_12.png)

>>469479
>gore poster cares about war crimes
lol lmao even don't pretend to be a fellow human when you've ousted yourself as an aberration
>>

 No.469493

File: 1684496347162.jpg (195.88 KB, 1128x598, Stealth_20230519_133816.jpg)

Ukraine still holds 0.2% of Bakhmut! Russians are losing!
>>

 No.469494

>>469479
>No. I just don't like war crimes and illegal wars of imperialism.
In that case maybe you could ask your glowy friends to let Assange go free.
>>

 No.469495

File: 1684498270066.mp4 (3.7 MB, 394x720, Stealth_20230519_140917.mp4)

Superior Ukrainian armored transport, taking heroes to the front line.
>>

 No.469496

>>469494
What does Assange have to do with Ukraine? Nothing. Typical Vatnik deflection tactics.
>>

 No.469497

>>469495
>Puccia is losing to this.
>>

 No.469498

>>469438
>This is why MLism only works with peasants. It's too retarded to work on anyone else.
only if by peasants you mean a peasant army
bolsheviks had influence in big industrial centers and army, countryside couldn't give two shits about gommunism and a bald dude, they wanted their land and for everyone to fuck off

you could make a point that MLism only "works" in feudal shitholes in transition to capitalism, that's what our observable data points to
>>

 No.469499

>you could make a point that MLism only "works" in feudal shitholes in transition to capitalism
tho looking at modern China it also seems to "work" in capitalism if we take it as a political system
>>

 No.469501

>>469489
The reason you can't persuade us of your position is because your basic premise is that we all have to suffer because the neocons want to own the Russians. I'm sure you'd be describing it differently but you get the gist.

The economic effects of the sanctions and the increased military spending is harming our material interests. At minimum You'd have to compromise your stance to the point where our material interests aren't harmed. You can't possibly expect anybody to agree to a premise where they get the short straw.

If you consider the democratic position that has to prioritize the material interests of the demos, you can see why many more people would find your stance extremely unconvincing. Please spare me the "Putin made me do it"-fallacy. Democracy enforces the interests of the demos without exception.
>>

 No.469502

File: 1684521145703.png (27.86 KB, 600x371, assange-2.png)

>>469496
>What does Assange have to do with
Every time you mention war-crimes, that reminds people of the fact that Julian Assange is unjustly imprisoned under tortures conditions for publishing investigative journalism that revealed US War crimes. Not name-dropping him amounts to unbearable hypocrisy.
>>

 No.469503

>>469497
>Puccia is losing the media war to this
yup, those plucky Ukies in their tractors get loads of likes on fb. Russians won't be able to step foot on twitter or instagram. TOTAL RUSSIAN DEFEAT
>>

 No.469504

>>469480
Berletic made a video that looks into more detail about that.

https://invidious.snopyta.org/watch?v=EikDYT2xJ2c
>>

 No.469505

>>469504
Yeah, but why doesn't he show the destroyed Patriot battery?
>>

 No.469506

>>469498
Czarist Russia was not industrialized. Cope harder tankie.
>>

 No.469507

>>469475
>This isn't even Russia's final form!
The copes from tankies keep getting more delicious.
>>

 No.469508

>>469504
Ukraine criminalized filming this kind of stuff after that recent video showed a Russian hyper-sonic missile sailing past roughly 30 Patriot interceptors.
>>

 No.469509

>>469508
Okay then post that video.
>>

 No.469510

whoops
>>469508
meant for >>469507

__

>>469509
>Okay then post that video.
Look at this : >>469478
>>

 No.469511

File: 1684533282005.jpg (63.54 KB, 1024x698, chad tankie.jpg)

>>469506
>>469507
>>

 No.469512

>>469505
He kind of does at 5:27. Although its a lot of conjecture as to whether it was a Patriot battery that was hit.
>>

 No.469513

>>469511
>Tankies think they look like the guy on the right.
Haha tankies are some of the biggest dwebs online. You really need to get some self awareness.
>>

 No.469514

>>469512
So no evidence of destroying a Patriot battery, then?
>>

 No.469515

>>469508
So how does Russia know it hit said system?
>>

 No.469516

>>469510
Yeah, can you post the one without the timestamp cropped out?
>>

 No.469517

File: 1684534677534.png (12.53 KB, 720x720, lamo-stealman.png)

>>469513
That got you bothered ?
lamo
>>

 No.469518

>>469515
>So how does Russia know it hit said system?
Military battlefield surveillance probably, or spies if they went old-school.
>>469516
you probably have to go find the site where these vids were posted originally. There are overlay logos in the videos maybe you could find out based on that.
>>

 No.469522

File: 1684578389008.jpg (113.15 KB, 722x940, IMG_20230520_172359_939.jpg)

>>

 No.469523

>>469518
>Military battlefield surveillance probably, or spies if they went old-schoo
Do they should be able to show it, right? Why fid they arrest the developers if their wunderwuffe instead?
>you probably have to go find the site where these vids were posted originally. There are overlay logos in the videos maybe you could find out based on that.
So you can't show me the destroyed Patriot battery, then? Okay.
>>

 No.469524

>>469523
>glowie wants us to do his work for him
no, I will not help you identify the kind of surveillance technology Russia is using or where it is located. Nice try though.
>>

 No.469525

File: 1684581183973.png (389.67 KB, 1080x560, Stealth_20230520_130941.png)

Serious question, how is Ukraine going to take back Crimea if they cannot hold Bakhmut?
>>

 No.469526

File: 1684584785071-0.mp4 (398.4 KB, 298x240, Stealth_20230520_141023.mp4)

File: 1684584785071-1.mp4 (2.18 MB, 1280x672, Stealth_20230520_141051.mp4)

File: 1684584785071-2.mp4 (4.83 MB, 1080x1080, Stealth_20230520_141112.mp4)

File: 1684584785071-3.mp4 (1.44 MB, 330x360, Stealth_20230520_141104.mp4)

>>469525
B A K H M U T H A S F A L L E N

You may begin to cope, libs.

S E E T H E

Z
>>

 No.469527

>>469524
So no evidence, then? Okay.
>>

 No.469528

>>469523
I don't think the Russians value propaganda as much as NATO does. They probably could get a minor propaganda win by releasing confirmation evidence of a wrecked Patriot battery, but that would also release information that would grant insight into their decision making processes. While you can obfuscate the technical capabilities of surveillance tools by releasing degraded information, it would still release a psychological map about how information is organized.

There is another aspect about the Ukrainians shooting a barrage of 30 interceptors at the Russian hyper-sonic missile. 30 Interceptors that's an unusually high amount. I think the US might have been doing a weapons test of sorts, to see if they can defeat such a missile with sheer volume of interception attempts. If this had worked they might have begun a weapons research project based on "stochastic interception" that uses lots of cheap interception projectiles.

If this was the case one has to wonder why it didn't work. Even if the Patriot only has a measly 3% interception rate for missiles (like the Israeli military claims) 32 attempts should have statistically yielded a near certain hit probability. The only way the statistical chances would not accumulate with multiple interception attempts and become statistically reset, was if the Russian hyper-sonic missiles could make small micro trajectory changes between interception attempts, requiring very rapid maneuvering (10 direction-changes a second or more). The missile probably slows down to super-sonic speed to avoid overheating in the lower atmosphere (at least i can't see any evidence for a thermal bleed-off mechanism that would release some kind off coolant vapor-trail). Steering at super sonic speed is easier than steering at hyper-sonic speed but i'm having a hard-time wrapping my head around how they did this. Maybe it's something exotic like using small explosive charges that pop off small weights in random direction if the missiles does evasive maneuvers.
>>

 No.469529

>>469528
That's a lot of words to say that you can't show evidence.
>>

 No.469530

@>BREAKING: Reuters, KIEV - President Zelenskyy Renames Kiev Bakhmut, Dares Russia to Take It

5 minutes rea

Ha! Vatniks lose again.
>>

 No.469531

>>469529
The official story from the US is that the Russians only destroyed a few Patriot Launchers but not the Patriot Radar.
The official story from Russia is that they wrecked the Launchers and the Radar.

This is a tactical difference but not a strategic one. Hence why i would consider this to be two sources saying the same thing, at least it's close enough to treat it as such.
>>

 No.469532

>>469530
>BREAKING: Reuters, KIEV - President Zelenskyy Renames Kiev Bakhmut, Dares Russia to Take It
kek
The Russians are probably going to rename or "back-name" Bakhmut into Artemivsk or Artemovsk, so the name is free again and they could do that.

The Ukrainians renamed Kiev (pronounced "kee-eff") into Kiyv, which triggered my autism because they pronounce Kiyv as "keef" which only has 1 syllable and city-names are supposed to have at least 2. Usually i follow the rule of using what ever name is currently given to a place by the people that live there, but they didn't follow a sensible naming convention. There simply aren't enough single-syllable-noises for all the cities. So it was either defaulting back to the previous name or calling it "Ukraine-capital-city". So with "Backmoot" having sufficient syllables that would be an upgrade.
>>

 No.469533

>>469517
Post chin
>>

 No.469534

>>469517
No, because every tankie I've ever seen was either a weedy dweeb or clearly in the spectrum.
>>

 No.469535

File: 1684595443937-0.jpg (27.89 KB, 650x432, dialectial-lol.jpg)

File: 1684595443937-1.jpg (63.54 KB, 1024x698, chad tankie.jpg)

>>469533
>>469534
The amount of seething that one chad tankie jaypeg has caused is delicious.
>>

 No.469536

>>469535
>You're seething
Nah, I've met enough tankies to know what I'm talking about. Still won't post chin, interesting.
>>

 No.469537

>>469531
>The official story from the US is that the Russians only destroyed a few Patriot Launchers but not the Patriot Radar.
Strange, because Ukraine only has two launchers, not two batteries. Second, the official statement is that one suffered damage so inconsequential that it was fixed within 24 hrs, and the system never got deadlined. Since Russia arrested the devs of their missile for treason, I tend to believe that they didn't hit shit.
>>

 No.469538

>>469526
Fuck yeah, that means Russia won the war, since Ukraine is so attrited that it cannot hold a single line. I look forward to Ukrainian capitulation in no more than half a month.
>>

 No.469539

File: 1684615360897.jpg (1.65 MB, 2500x2342, Stealth_20230520_224113.jpg)

RUN PIGGIES, RUN!
>>

 No.469540

File: 1684615369149.png (29.35 KB, 800x450, f16nbg.png)

So apparently the neocons did manage, against the wishes of the US Air-force, to get F16s into the Ukraine war. Ukrainian pilots apparently are only going to get a 4 month crash-course on how to fly this thing. Obviously the f16 isn't the newest plane anymore and when it's piloted by badly trained pilots, it probably won't fare so well against Russian Air defenses (which might be the most advanced in the world at present).

The F16 is one of the few US jet-fighters in production that's actually pretty good value, and the arms industry in the US probably wants these to be destroyed rather than converted into AI-powered wing-men, because they want to sell expensive new stuff not cost efficient conversion kits.

But beyond that i suspect that the US might be intent on using these planes to test the Russian air-defenses and they don't really care about whether or not the lot gets scrapped in the process. At least this is how I'm trying to make sense of this.

Ukraine gets all these weapons systems one after the other, sequentially. That makes little sense, if they'd gotten all of that stuff in a bundle they might have been able to use it at least somewhat effectively in combined arms warfare. But it does make perfect sense if this is an experiment and somebody wanted to control for other variables and isolate the effect of one weapons system at a time.

Of course i might be over analyzing this and there is no clever scheme, and this was just a badly organized campaign of scraping together what ever weapons they could.
>>

 No.469541

>>469538
>>469538
If Ukraine has exhausted too much manpower and equipment in the Bakhmut grinder, and they're running on empty that means that the Russians might have a relatively clear path westwards, until they reach the next geographic feature the Ukrainians could use to dig in.

I can't be the only one thinking this, because many of the pro Ukraine/Nato "war-happy" voices suddenly started talking about freezing the conflict. Those would not be saying this unless they were worried about Ukraine being about to loose a bunch of terrain.

I wonder if these prospects tilt the balance enough to make the west consider a realistic diplomatic offer for a cease-fire. I'm not expecting much since so far the western line has been "no diplomacy until we have the upper hand".
>>

 No.469547

File: 1684631269082.jpeg (105.66 KB, 828x963, FwlgSHgWAAEbAq8.jpeg)

>>469541
Onwards to Berlin, comrade!
>>

 No.469549

>>469474
>>469478
Scott Ritter completely called this one. An inept missile defense system that only works in large quantities and with operators with highly technical training, it would be targeted and hit the moment it was setup, and that's exactly what happened.
>>

 No.469550

"The US owns the copyright on economic coercion"

https://invidious.snopyta.org/watch?v=VZvRjfPao3k
>>

 No.469552

>>469547
I think this time the heart of darkness is somewhere in Washington, or where ever the neocons have set up tent.

>>469549
With Ritter having been a weapons inspector that is very unsurprising.
>>

 No.469553

>>469540
>Ukraine gets all these weapons systems one after the other, sequentially.
Makes perfect sense to me. Americans are very weary of war after 20 years of it. They'll only support this war if we're winning it at zero expense. Yes I realize the weapons they're getting cost money but it's not like that cash was ever going to build schools so it's nota net negative for burgers.
>>

 No.469554

>>469549
They got one missile battery, sheesh.
>>

 No.469555

>>469525
You can't be serious.
>>

 No.469557

File: 1684660739460-0.png (380.46 KB, 1080x2101, Screenshot_20230521-111024….png)

File: 1684660739460-1.png (349.58 KB, 1080x2143, Screenshot_20230521-111130….png)

File: 1684660739460-2.png (776.17 KB, 1080x2148, Screenshot_20230521-111325….png)

>>469555
Last year it was in vogue to say Ukraine will retake Crimea. Zelenskyy said it was the win condition for Ukraine.

Now the cope has started:
>Ukraine isn't winning cause the West doesn't want them too
>"taking back Crimea" does not necessarily mean taking it back militarily

https://visegradinsight.eu/crimea-battle-ukraine-russia/

https://www.politico.eu/article/ukraine-russia-crimea-war-peace-volodymyr-zelenskyy/

https://www.politico.com/newsletters/global-insider/2023/04/26/how-to-win-in-ukraine-and-take-back-crimea-00093887

I've been saying from the start: Russia will take what they want. Now that Ukraine defense has collapsed and their forces have been routed, Russians will be able to make faster progress. The "counteroffensive" is Ukraine attacking small, undefended villages and hamlets on the flanks, that they quickly lose after. Fucking PR counteroffensive as Russian artillery chews through the next generation of Ukrainians.
>>

 No.469558

>>469557
>I've been saying from the start: Russia will take what they want.
And Ukraine will claim victory because Russians didn't genocide all Ukrainians and conquer all of Ukraine (like they were planning to do).

They'll say that they didn't want Donbas anyway and that Russians lost by taking it. And since liberals have no critical thinking skills or the ability to form cohesive thoughts, will just believe and internalise the new narrative.
>>

 No.469559

>>469553
>Makes perfect sense to me. Americans are very weary of war after 20 years of it. They'll only support this war if we're winning it at zero expense.
This sounds like you are trying to blame the demos for the Ukraine war that the Neocons clearly botched, because they were too stupid to count the actually existing industrial production in Russia. It's perfectly rational for people to not want to pay for that kind of shit, because it doesn't benefit them.

>Yes I realize the weapons they're getting cost money but it's not like that cash was ever going to build schools so it's nota net negative for burgers.
The US could reduce military spending and build schools etc. The US military expanses are in part so bloated because it's such a big contractor grift for a gazillion middle-men, none of which are actively producing or wielding weapons. Those can be cut out without consequences. Most of these probably are dedicated opportunists without any loyalties, who will start a new grift the day budget-funds get relocated to public infrastructure.
>>

 No.469561

>>469557
When Rusoid troops inevitably fail to make an advance and Ukraine does it instead, how will you cope?
>>

 No.469562

File: 1684676809846-0.jpg (119.92 KB, 714x625, Stealth_20230521_153458.jpg)

File: 1684676809846-1.png (617.08 KB, 1080x1252, Screenshot_20230521-154001….png)

>>469561
What do you mean fail? They just took Bakhmut, while Ukrainian fell back West. They retreated to Chasiv Yar, but it won't help. Russia got its shit together. They will shell the area with rockets, artillery, thermobaric weapons, phosphorous, etc. and then send in the infantry after to clean up. The next "proper" defensive line Ukraine has is Kramatorsk-Slavyansk, but something tells me they're gonna sacrifice people in Chasiv Yar like they did in Bakhmut to "buy time".

The "counter-offensive" was the few feeble attacks on the flanks, most of which were repelled.

The only reason you were made to believe Ukraine had a chance at defeating Russia is because it suits bourgeois interests. You poor fool.

Russia won this war the moment their tanks crossed the Ukrainian border. And no matter how much you want that not to be true, it is true. You libs would be better off facing reality, rather than denying it in hopes of a different result. Reality asserts itself, always.
>>

 No.469563

File: 1684677426430-0.png (257.52 KB, 1080x1937, Screenshot_20230521-155255….png)

File: 1684677426430-1.png (195.34 KB, 1080x1294, Screenshot_20230521-155329….png)

File: 1684677426430-2.png (206.82 KB, 1080x1379, Screenshot_20230521-155419….png)

File: 1684677426430-3.png (181.03 KB, 1080x1338, Screenshot_20230521-155520….png)

Look at all this cope. These people are so desperate, they're literally asking strangers on the internet to tell them everything is going to be OK.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Z
>>

 No.469564

File: 1684682941983-0.png (392.24 KB, 461x675, 7gg7g98ih981.png)

File: 1684682941983-1.png (432.64 KB, 432x680, 7gg7g98ih982.png)

File: 1684682941983-2.png (486.91 KB, 572x700, 7gg7g98ih983.png)

File: 1684682941983-3.png (423.32 KB, 533x694, 7gg7g98ih984.png)

>>469562
>>

 No.469565

File: 1684683106847-0.png (372.06 KB, 427x632, 7gg7g98ih982.png)

File: 1684683106847-1.png (355.65 KB, 413x597, 7gg7g98ih983.png)

File: 1684683106847-2.png (375.16 KB, 474x661, 7gg7g98ih984.png)

File: 1684683106847-3.png (350.3 KB, 459x627, 7gg7g98ih985.png)

File: 1684683106847-4.png (397.23 KB, 432x652, 7gg7g98ih986.png)

>>

 No.469566

>>469562
>Russia won this war the moment their tanks crossed the Ukrainian border
This is mostly true, the Russians did make a final attempt at rescuing the Minsk2 agreements in march of 2022 during the Istanbul peace talks. (that was a month after the tanks crossed over). If Washington, Brussels and Kiev had taken that deal, that would have meant the war would have ended in a draw.

If that had gone through Russia would have gotten a NATO expansion-stop for Ukraine, partial autonomy for the Donbass region, and Ukraine would have been able to keep it's territory and military (minus the CIA-Bandera-wing), and likely turned into a medium significant regional economic player by becoming an intermediary between the West and Russia. Ukraine could have entered the European Union with a few asterisks, like those other partial members of the EU. The arms industry and US shale-gas would not have gotten their big payday. The neocons who yurned for more war and bloodshed would have been snubbed, but pretty much everybody else in the West would have seen a small net benefit out of this.
>>

 No.469567

File: 1684683727820.jpg (57.82 KB, 459x486, bakhmut gone.jpg)

>>469565
>>

 No.469568

File: 1684684494446-0.png (384.65 KB, 740x592, eioxnoeidnx1.png)

File: 1684684494447-1.png (381.35 KB, 509x594, eioxnoeidnx2.png)

File: 1684684494447-2.png (380.74 KB, 508x599, xduen8uxn.png)

>>469567
Lulzi
>>

 No.469569

File: 1684693941462.png (107.54 KB, 1080x908, Screenshot_20230521-203144….png)

N U C L E A R C O P I U M
>>

 No.469570

>>469567
Are Vatniks really making a big deal about taking Bakhmut?
>>

 No.469571

>>469569
>I don't know what a Pyrrhic victory is.
Why is Russian education such shit.
>>

 No.469573

>>469563
Bakhmut isn't strategically significant. Yes having access to that freeway juncture would have been nice but it's by no means critical.
Why are vatniks so clumsy at revisionism. Do they really think people can't remember back a few months ago?
>>

 No.469574

>>469557
>Vatnkiks think the tide is turning because they took one town in bumfuck Egypt after months of trying and god knows how many casualties.
Sensible chuckle
>>

 No.469575

Douglas Macgregor posted an interesting Discussion, apparently Poland is telling Zelensky ,it's over, and he should make peace.

https://invidious.snopyta.org/watch?v=mCkDRXk17qM
>>

 No.469576

>>469574
don't forget the 10-1 K/D ratio the Ukrainian defenders inflicted on the zerg rushing Russians kek
>>

 No.469577

File: 1684701787850.png (62.28 KB, 706x643, nuclear cope.png)

>>469570
>>469571
>>469573
>>469576
so the nuclear coping begins
>>

 No.469578

>>469573
>Bakhmut isn't strategically significant
Then why did Ukraine defend it?
>>469570
>Ukraine hoists a flag in a hamlet in the middle of a field
<Slava zucchini! Moscow by Christmas! Haha it's over, vatniks!
>Russia takes Bakhmut, a city Ukrainians said would not fall, securing its supply lines in Donetsk, getting roads to Chasiv Yar and Kramatorsk, etc.
<it's nothing!
Nobody is falling for your act. Where's that fascist anon taking screenshots of our posts?

Face it, if Ukraine can't hold a city, they have no hopes in retaking Kherson, Zaporizhe, Donetsk or Luhansk, let alone Crimea. LOL
>>

 No.469579

Alexander Mercouris has summed up the situation pretty well

<Bakhmut has fallen
<Coverage of Bakhmut in Western media
<Dog #2 having his personal Wagner moment conquering office, defenders are sleeping
<Bakhmut - where do we go from here?
<Further Russian offense?
<Ukrainian soldiers were given order to leave Bakhmut
<'Not-spring offensive' might happen any day now. Or not.
<Russians likely ready for offensive by now

https://invidious.snopyta.org/watch?v=tofcHrJER6E
>>

 No.469580

File: 1684707720544-0.png (872.29 KB, 1054x1889, Screenshot_20230522-001721….png)

File: 1684707720544-1.png (659.58 KB, 1080x1765, Screenshot_20230522-002019….png)

File: 1684707720544-2.png (906.36 KB, 1080x1963, Screenshot_20230522-002056….png)

UKRAINE ADVANCES 0.7KM

RUSSIANS IN BAKHMUT ABOUT TO BE ENCIRCLED

SUCK ON THAT VATNIKS
>>

 No.469581

File: 1684710400004.png (37.46 KB, 1000x990, imagination.png)

>>469580
>RUSSIANS IN BAKHMUT ABOUT TO BE ENCIRCLED
total disconnect from reality
>>

 No.469582

>>469540
Say goodbye to every single piece of Russian aircraft you have in the Ukraine Vatniks.
This war will be over by Christmas
>>

 No.469583

>>469578
Damn, those strawmen were obliterated! Is there anything that Vatniks say that isn't projection.
>>

 No.469584

>>469562
>What do you mean fail? They just took Bakhmut
So that means Russia won the war, right? Couldn't possibly be that a nearly yearlong battle that didn't result in a breakthrough wasn't particularly conducive to future operations, right? If vatnik propaganda was correct about attrition strategy, then Ukraine obviously has no troops left. So where is the advance? It's not coming, and people like Girkin can see it, while you swallow more propaganda, against all reason and logic. Can't wait to see your next cope.
>>

 No.469585

File: 1684744390883.jpg (153.55 KB, 1023x1500, AA.jpg)

>>469582
The Russians field one of the most potent layered anti air defense systems in existence. Consider that they were able to track and hit the (in comparison to a jet) tiny himars projectiles. Jet fighters in general have little chance of prevailing against that type of system until they can be fitted with directed energy weapons that can shoot down incoming interceptor missiles. The US is researching that technology but i doubt they have anything operational. The US has other counter measures but they have limited effectiveness and require complex mission profiles that those Ukrainian pilots with the bare minimum of training won't be able to execute. On top of all that those jets will have to use airfields that are in range of Russian missile strikes.

Don't get your hopes up.
>>

 No.469586

File: 1684744575090.jpg (87.8 KB, 1024x942, 1684536192112879m.jpg)

>>469570
They have to cling to it because it's the one win they have in almost a year. They also seem to think that they have totally repelled the Ukrainian offensive that is still carrying out shaping operations and probing attacks. It's the same as Kherson. They claimed they had successfully withstood the Ukrainian offensive only to run for their lives at the final hour.
>>

 No.469587

>>469585
>Consider that they were able to track and hit the (in comparison to a jet) tiny himars projectiles
Is that why they let an army HQ get hit recently? Is that why they decided to pull back logistics instead of defending their assets? Must be because air defense is so good that nobody wonders "what air defense doing?"
>>

 No.469588

>>469570
>>469573
If Bakhmut isn't important, why did Ukrainian sacrificed so many soldiers to defend it ?

>>469571
>>469576
Bakhmut was basically a battle of attrition, the Ukrainians lost so many men in that. The Russians were mostly doing artillery strikes while suffering very limited losses.
>>

 No.469589

>>469584
>then Ukraine obviously has no troops left. So where is the advance?
this. Ukraine used up all its resources defending Bakhmut for reddit upvotes and now they cannot mount a counter-offensive. Where is the counter-offensive? First it was Winter offensive, then Spring offensive, now Summer offensive. But I'm afraid they do not have the ability to mount a combined-arms assault to break through the Russian line.
>>

 No.469590

>>469586
!RemindMe 1 year
>>

 No.469591

>>469588
Ukraine has/had 14 battalions defending Bakhmut, highest number out of the whole front. But it was Russia who tied up manpower in Bakhmut lol

Russia threw professional Wagner troops at poorly trained Ukrainians after shelling them with thousands of shells a day, while making progress in Avdivka and Luhansk.

NAFOids are hoping the Western-trained Nazis and their Wunderwaffe will turn the tide of the war. But I think it is more likely that the Nazis will consolidate power in Ukraine, rather than get stupidly slaughtered by Russian artillery. This is why Territorial Defense troops were charged with defending the city and manning trenches as cannon fodder, while Azov, Kraken, etc. were doing "probing attacks" on the flanks, basically sneaking in, killing as many as they can, and running away.
>>

 No.469592

>>469587
>Is that why they let an army HQ get hit recently?
I'm not sure what you are referring too, during this war the Russians set a few air defense records like longest range jet fighter interception and also interception of the smallest non-ballistic-trajectory missile. There is little reason to doubt that their systems are extremely capable.

>Is that why they decided to pull back logistics instead of defending their assets?
Not sure what you are talking about here either, they have proven to be very effective at anti air defense on many occasions.
>>

 No.469593

>>469591
Ukraine definitely also lost a bunch of highly trained fighters in Bukhmut, whether that coincides with those holding Nazi-type ideological believes, i don't know. (I think the battle in Mariupol killed off a sizable fraction of Ukrainian fascists). I doubt that there is a special correlation between Nazi ideology and fighting prowess. I understand that disproportionately many people on the fascistic ideological spectrum think they are some kind of super-warrior but that doesn't mean they actually are.

As for the Ukrainian Nazis consolidating power goes, that's far from a sure thing. They used extremely brutal methods against the Ukrainian population and they were not very successful in war. They will not stay in power unless the US keeps the CIA operation that brought them into power going. At least at the moment it looks like the US is loosing interest in Ukraine because they want to tango with China. If the US "pivots" their attention to Asia that means many/all those US influence resources that Ukraine gets will be redirected to countries like Taiwan , Japan, Republic of Korea, Thailand and so on. Even if the US leaves a CIA contingent in place, after the kinetic war concludes, the Russians are going to send spies after them until they are forced to pull out. Then the Ukrainian Nazis will face the wrath of all those people who they have or tried to brutalize, who now think of them as vicious uncivilized animals.
>>

 No.469594

File: 1684753804270.jpg (140.71 KB, 1024x1024, 1684741382584705m.jpg)

New brief
>>

 No.469595

>>469594
>Bakhmut? What's that?
>RUSSIA'S NEW SUPERWEAPON!
>YOU WILL NOT SLEEP SOUNDLY WHILE THOSE MONSTERS ARE ALIVE
it's all so exhausting
>>

 No.469596

>>469585
>The Russians field one of the most potent layered anti air defense systems in existence.
Is that why there's 10 thousand videos of Russian helicopters eating shit from MANPADS.
>>

 No.469597

>>469585
>On top of all that those jets will have to use airfields that are in range of Russian missile strikes.
LMAO, no.
>>

 No.469598

>>469585
>Consider that they were able to track and hit the (in comparison to a jet) tiny himars projectiles.
Vatniks just making shit up now.
>>

 No.469599

File: 1684770475929.jpg (135.81 KB, 900x1110, 20230301_091658.jpg)

>>469593
>Ukraine's Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi because a few units embrace the ideology.
>Russia views Ukrainians as beneath them and makes blood and soil claims to their country. But their imperialist invasion isn't fascist because they don't like Hitler you see.
>>

 No.469600

File: 1684773728345.png (83.9 KB, 800x769, Russia surrounded by NATO ….png)

>>469594
>brief
no this is brief:
<please forget about Bakhmut
<Russia has an air-force, be afraid but also feel superior

>>469596
>Is that why there's 10 thousand videos of Russian helicopters eating shit from MANPADS.
There certainly aren't ten thousand videos of that, and i don't see how this is related to F16s with half-trained pilots going up against Russian S300 and S400 integrated air defense batteries ?
You do realize that air defense batteries defend places on the ground against aircraft in the sky, right ? They don't protect helis, because those aren't places on the ground.

>>469597
Russia can missile strike all of Ukraine, well technically they can missile strike any place on earth but that won't come into play unless it has escalated into WW3. So where are those planes supposed to be stationed, Poland ? the Baltic's ?

>>469598
The Ukrainians tried to destroy that bridge between Russia and Crimea, with himars rockets that's when they learned how to track and shoot them down, when that didn't work they tried to blow up the bridge with a truck full of explosives.

>>469599
I guess that you can make the distinction that In Nazi Germany, the liberals were the Junior partner of the Nazis, while in Ukraine the Nazis are the junior partner, so the roles are reversed, but it's still Liberals collaborating with Nazis. You're not getting a pass on that.

Also Ukraine banned all 11 opposition parties, in Marxist Jargon that's called the open dictatorship of the bourgeoisie, that's fascism. Also Zelensky selling out all of Ukraine to wall-street, proclaiming "Ukraine is open for business" while Ukrainians are forced to die on the battle field that was very reminiscent "Fascism being caused by the most chauvinistic reactionary part of the imperialist finance bourgeoisie"

You have to understand the historic context, the Russians lost almost 30 million people in WW2, it's completely understandable that they would dump several million artillery shells and tens of thousands of rockets on anything under their noses that is armed and carries Nazi symbols. Try standing next to an Israely military base while armed and screaming "Sieg heil", it would be no less surprising if they gunned you down. Also look at how many NATO bases are surrounding Russia, those Ukrainian Nazis working towards NATO integration, that's a potent incentive for the Russians to go smashy.
>>

 No.469602

Pas and Wob must be Russian right? They're literally deleting and banning anyone talkiing about Belogrod on Shittypol.
Either way, this is the most entertaining thing that has happened in this retarded ass war in a year.
>>

 No.469604

>>469600
>Also Ukraine banned all 11 opposition parties
He banned pro Russia parties which is normal war time stuff. He didn't ban all political opposition ya butt hurt Vatnik.
>>

 No.469605

>>469600
>You have to understand the historic context, the Russians lost almost 30 million people in WW2,
And Ukraine lost several million fighting fascists. Its completely bullshit that Ukraine is some deeply Nazified state like tankies claim.
>>

 No.469606

>>469585
>The Russians field one of the most potent layered anti air defense systems in existence.
<I don't know what a cruise missile is.
>>

 No.469607

File: 1684783227547.jpg (100.3 KB, 1024x1024, 1684765560079837m.jpg)

>>469602
TEMPO
TEMPO
TEMPO
>>

 No.469608

File: 1684783530048.webm (3.9 MB, 390x480, 1684775149175624.webm)

The Russians entered this war under the rather childish delusion that they were going to invade everyone else, and nobody was going to invade them. At Kiev, Mariupol, Kherson, and half a hundred other places, they put their rather naive theory into operation. They sowed the wind, and now they are going to reap the whirlwind.
>>

 No.469609

>>469604
He painted the entire political opposition as being in cahoots with the enemy to have a pretext to abolish democracy. And just for the record it's not normal procedure to abandon democracy because it's war time. You have no leg to stand on.

>>469605
>And Ukraine lost several million fighting fascists.
That's probably true

>Its completely bullshit that Ukraine is some deeply Nazified state like tankies claim.
<it's ok if you only do a little bit of fascist collaborationism.
I thought that after WW2 went so badly we'd be done with the Nazi shit entirely. How many more countries do you people have to turn into rubble before you give up on this shit.

>>469606
So the F16s are supposed to launch those storm-shadow cruse missiles ?

The Russians have long range stand-off air-to-air fighters that can intercept these.
The Russian air defenses batteries have at least 3 layers that will try to engage this at different ranges, which means there are three filters they have to get through.
The Russians also have the ability to strike any place in Ukraine with missiles, and fighter jets will be high priority targets, which makes staging these attacks very difficult.

I'm sure a handful of these will get through, but most won't and this will not change the tide.

Russia had loads of cruise missiles too, probably much more than what Ukraine gets.
>>

 No.469610

File: 1684784445996.gif (63.98 KB, 487x605, think.gif)

>>469608
Step 1: invade Russia
Step 2: get nuked to shit
Step 3: no whirlwind, those that survived the nuclear onslaught are busy trying to stay alive.

>the rather childish delusion
of going to war with a nuclear superpower
>>

 No.469611

File: 1684784950010.png (41.61 KB, 742x404, 1684769847518493.png)

>>469610
But do you know where the nukes were being kept? I give you one big hint: it's another People's Republic. Solidarity with the people of BPR. Russia should have listened to Ukraine's legitimate concerns.
>>

 No.469612

File: 1684785584223.jpg (164.47 KB, 565x683, 1684769763731374.jpg)

>>469610
>Now I have a nuclear weapon xa xa xa
>>

 No.469615

>>469608
>our hope are the terrorists in Russia willing to kill civilians
How are you Nazis different from ISIS?
>>

 No.469616

File: 1684790651800.jpg (333.06 KB, 1200x1207, 1684754281340.jpg)

hot meme
>>

 No.469617

>>469609
You can cope about the F-16s being no big deal all you want but the Ukrainians have been able to deny air superiority without them and this is greatly expand their capabilities.
>>

 No.469618

>>469617
When is Ukraine expected to receive the F-16s? AFAIK, they are just beginning to train pilots. But apparently what they lack are mechanics that can repair/maintain the F-16s, and those people take longer to train.
>>

 No.469619

File: 1684792215052.jpg (41.43 KB, 800x450, ccvzrbwha9tx.jpg)

>>469609
>I thought that after WW2 went so badly we'd be done with the Nazi shit entirely. How many more countries do you people have to turn into rubble before you give up on this shit.
<Vatniks states this as they are actively invading a nation and turning it to rubble.
>>

 No.469620

>>469611
>>469612
I have no clue what this is about, are you implying Ukraine has a nuke ?

>>469617
>You can cope about the F-16s being no big deal all
I think you're a fool, the western backers of Ukraine don't want Ukraine to win, they just want Ukraine to be able to poke Russia a bit to keep the War going.
>the Ukrainians have been able to deny air superiority
Ukraine inherited their air defenses from the Soviets which were extraordinary dense and sophisticated. The US for example has never faced off against an enemy with that level of air defenses. While the Russians did have the advantage that they know exactly how all that stuff works, it's still impressive how quickly they degraded those defenses to the point where their jets and bombers could fly relatively undisturbed.

>>469619
<Vatniks states this as they are actively invading a nation and turning it to rubble.
You're a clown, would you be defending the WW2 Nazis against the Soviets and US because technically they invaded Nazi Germany ?
>>

 No.469621

File: 1684797828302.jpeg (87.92 KB, 1210x448, FwvNHhOXgAYvOE2.jpeg)

Oh, noes!!!11!1one
>>

 No.469622

File: 1684798227174.jpeg (15.61 KB, 360x302, FwwKmwYWIAYpghr.jpeg)

Solidarity with the colonized people of Russian Federation.
>>

 No.469623

File: 1684801617283.png (7.86 KB, 400x400, hmmm.png)

>>469622
Do you even realize that this is basically threatening Russians to carve up their country ? and that it puts Russia's actions in the Ukraine war into a defensive light.
>>

 No.469624

>>469623
Russia should respect Bilhorod People's Republic right to self determination. Russia should negotiate.
>>

 No.469625

>>469622
This
>>469623
Yes
>>

 No.469626

>>469624
This
>>469623
My oblast, my choice
>>

 No.469629

File: 1684830746745.png (151.72 KB, 1920x2281, 51140937_7.png)

>>469623
>Do you even realize that this is basically threatening Germans to carve up their country ? and that it puts Nazi actions in the Eastern Front into a defensive light.
>>

 No.469630

File: 1684831880546.png (14.49 KB, 743x775, redditor.png)

>>469624
>Bilhorod People's Republic
I tried to figuring out what this is, but it appears to be a reddit meme
>Russia should negotiate.
with the nation of reddit ?
>>

 No.469631

>>469625
>Yes
So you admit that you are trying to clothe naked imperialism in anti-colonial-rhetoric.
Very curious.
>>469626
>My oblast, my choice
but you probably don't even live in an oblast, you're mostly likely from central Europe or North America.
>>469629
This is retarded, threatening is a negotiation tactic, once the Nazis in WorldWarII had gone mask off, all the negotiations ceased and only hard-power remained. You have to credit the Russian Federation for trying negotiations with Natoproxykraine as long as they did, the Soviets wouldn't have been so patient.
>>

 No.469632

BREAKING

>RUSSIA DOES NOT CONTROL BAKHMUT
stupid, lying vatniks falling for everything puccia says

>WAGNER TROOPS ARE NEARLY ENCIRCLED
Wagnerites were lured into the Bakhmut kill box, 100.000 casualties and counting. Wagner can't retreat from the city.

>UAF IS PUSHING ON THE FLANKS
While Wagner might be near the center of the city, the Russian troops around it are being destroyed and pushed.

>UKRAINE INVADED PUCCIA
Ukrainian troops managed to get 8km into puccian territory, take a village and establish a beachhead from where they can mount further attacks.

It's over, vatniks. cope and seethe. Pootin should pull whatever troops are left and beg Ukraine not to take puccian territory.
>>

 No.469634

File: 1684843932768.png (444.89 KB, 827x1640, 1684833307250-0.png)

>>469632
>>

 No.469635

File: 1684843984469.jpg (24.43 KB, 327x367, break from reality.jpg)

>>469632
Every time the Ukrainians lost something notable like Bakhmut they keep denying it for about 2 weeks until they finally admit it.

You're have to get out of the NATO propaganda bubble, too often they just relay Ukrainian propaganda.

You suffered a pretty brutal divorce from reality.
>>

 No.469636

>>469631
>So you admit that you are trying to clothe naked imperialism in anti-colonial-rhetoric.
No, just trying to dismantle the Czar's old imperialist land theft.
>>

 No.469637

File: 1684854900018.jpg (131.19 KB, 1024x1005, 1684849289953169m.jpg)

Latest update
>>

 No.469638

>>469631
>So you admit that you are trying to clothe naked imperialism in anti-colonial-rhetoric.
>Very curious.
So you think memes are an existential threat to Russia and not a war that's draining the resources of an already poor country and making them an international pariah?
>>

 No.469639

>>469620
>You're a clown, would you be defending the WW2 Nazis against the Soviets and US because technically they invaded Nazi Germany ?
No, because the Nazis invaded first and started the whole war.
>>

 No.469640

>>469639
Irony is lost on vatniks.
>>

 No.469643

>>469639
>So you think memes are an existential threat
No of course not, memes are just the messenger, you're the one sending the threatening message.

>draining the resources of an already poor country
yeah about that:
Zelensky is literally selling Ukraine to US corporations on Wall Street
<Ukraine’s Western-backed leader Volodymyr Zelensky virtually opened the New York Stock Exchange on the morning of September 6, symbolically ringing the bell via video stream.
<Zelensky announced that his country is “open for business” – that is to say, that foreign corporations are free to come and exploit its plentiful resources and low-paid labor.
https://geopoliticaleconomy.com/2022/09/09/zelensky-selling-ukraine-wall-street/

>making them an international pariah?
You have a topsy turvy world view.
The neocon has alienated a huge part of the world away from the west because of the side effects of their sanctions war against Russia. On the other hand Russia has definitely won the international diplomacy game, look at how few countries actually joined the sanctions war.
>>

 No.469644

>>469639
>the Nazis invaded first and started the whole war.
Yep they definitely did, in 2014 when they hijacked the Euromaidan protest for their CIA backed regime change color revolution of Ukraine.
>>

 No.469645

>>469643
meant for >>469638
>>

 No.469646

File: 1684867976507.png (568.46 KB, 1080x1448, 1684867233258306.png)

holy shit! that Ukrainian assault force made up of Russia freedom fighters is destroying Russian armour. Now they're actually pushing into Russia proper! hahahah

another day laughing at nazoids and vatniks. Putin should pull the troops out before Russia becomes Eastern Ukraine.
>>

 No.469648

File: 1684869898765.png (9.97 KB, 864x412, fiction.png)

>>469646
>Ukrainian assault force made up of Russia freedom fighters is destroying Russian armour. Now they're actually pushing into Russia proper!

Nafoids melting down and retreating into fiction after the Russians turned Bahkmut back into Artemovsk.
>>

 No.469649

>>469648
So there is no armed conflict in Russia proper?
>>

 No.469650

File: 1684875143321.png (750.76 KB, 1400x700, ClipboardImage.png)

>>469649
there is no war in Bel Go Rod
>>

 No.469651

>>469631
I am Joe Ivanovich Smith from Texas Oblast. I support the right of Bilhorod People's Republic to self-determination. I am demoralized.
>>

 No.469653

>>469646
Russia is really going to Balkanize isn't it. This is how my grand parents must have felt when they saw the Berlin wall come down.
>>

 No.469661

>>469653
Balkanizing Russia was the end-game that the neocons had in mind, but since the economic sanctions-war largely failed, and did more damage to the West than Russia, that isn't going to happen.

Ukraine launching micro incursions into Russian border towns is for political theater, it's inconsequential for the overall course of the war. There is zero military logistics machine behind it that could sustain a push.

Politically this war had the effect of unifying Russia to a degree it had not been in a long time.
>>

 No.469679

>>469661
>Panic: none
>Eyebrow: raised
>Knowing: known
>Ass: in ass
Work with a point.
>>

 No.469680

>>469679
Kek
>>

 No.469683

>>469679
I wish i understood what this means.
>>

 No.469690

File: 1684990361391.png (1.06 MB, 1600x1066, ClipboardImage.png)

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/russian-federation/plot-against-russia
The Plot Against Russia
<How Putin Revived Stalinist Anti-Americanism to Justify a Botched War
>In Stalin’s late years, anti-Americanism became the cornerstone of Soviet propaganda.
>The KGB promoted the idea that there was a secret U.S. plot to destroy the Soviet Union.
>For Putin, everything is viewed through the prism of the United States and the West.
>>

 No.469691

>>469690
>Stalin BTFOing Russia from beyond the grave instead of the West.
Like pottery
>>

 No.469692

>>469690
>openly say you want Russia to balkanise
>openly arm Russia's enemies
>what, destroy Russia? where would that madman Putin get such an idea?
>>

 No.469693

>>469690
>Putin Revived Stalinist
Sorry foreignaffairs-poster but the Simpsons did it better
https://invidious.snopyta.org/watch?v=_uxpCoAnQcw

Also if you paint Putin as Soviet, you're just making him look based
>>

 No.469698

>>469692
We wouldn't arm Ukraine if Russia had not invaded.
>>

 No.469699

File: 1685027872621.jpg (42.96 KB, 800x650, okropawn.jpg)

>>469698
No the neocons keep sending weapons to Ukraine because they want to keep the war going, and because they want to empty out western military stocks so that the weapons capitalists get to sell new stock for more profits.

Ukraine is just a pawn that is being destroyed in the process.

The neocons geopolitical gambit failed, Russia didn't buckle, but the war-racket that's still going.
>>

 No.469700

>>469699
Yeah, Russia should have stayed in Russia. Imagine helping these neocons spend money on the military.
>>

 No.469706

Ukrainians awarded Jimmy Dore the badge of honor for good journalism

https://invidious.snopyta.org/watch?v=-LLlcKPmzJk
>>

 No.469707

>>469706
Sadly, in the same video he asserts without evidence that's it's now a fact that covid came out of the Wuhan lab in China, so he won't be winning any journalism awards today.
>>

 No.469708

>>469707
They didn't find out who Patient Zero was, so you can't really know for sure. I remember reading a study that compared genomes of viruses and they gave it an 80+% probability for a zoological origin. That's statistically significant but it's not a sure bet either because they never really figured out how it could have crossed the species barrier. I have to admit i didn't really research the various lab-leak claims, because none of these labs publishes what exactly they're researching. All the bio-labs research corona viruses in general because they're a really common type.

So i can't really say.
>>

 No.469710

>>469708
>so you can't really know for sure
Unexpected detection of SARS-CoV-2 antibodies in the prepandemic period in Italy
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0300891620974755
<The first positive sample (IgM-positive) was recorded on September 3 in the Veneto region, followed by a case in Emilia Romagna (September 4), a case in Liguria (September 5), two cases in Lombardy (Milano Province; September 9), and one in Lazio (Roma; September 11). By the end of September, 13 of the 23 (56.5%) positive samples were recorded in Lombardy, three in Veneto, two in Piedmont, and one each in Emilia Romagna, Liguria, Lazio, Campania, and Friuli.
That's a full three months before the Wuhan outback. Furthermore, this study was published over two years ago now, so it's not like this is a new revelation. I have never once seen someone address this extremely inconvenient evidence that covid was circulating elsewhere in the world three months before the Wuhan outbreak. And I am really running out of patience for people I normally respect falling for the fallacy it-was-censored-on-social-media-therefore-it's-true. Jimmy needs to present some actual fucking evidence for lab leak his theory already or stop playing useful idiot for the US's geopolitical goal of demonizing China.
>>

 No.469711

https://invidious.snopyta.org/watch?v=v-rHBRwdql8
Good recent talk by John Mearsheimer (from the "realistic" camp of geopolitical scientists) on the future of the Ukraine proxy war. He says that it's in Russia's interest to conquer several more oblasts with primary Russia speakers to prevent another civil war situation like that which plagued the Donbass since 2014, and that it's in Russia's interest to take enough territory to completely cut Ukraine off from Black Sea trade and transform what's left into a dysfunctional rump state.
>>

 No.469713

>>469710
I had never seen this study before, thanks for bringing that to my attention.
It does suggest that corona virus outbreak in Italy Lombardy region precedes that of China Wuhan region and that we can rule out China as point of origin. Weather Italy ought to be considered the point of origin now is still unclear to me, but it looks like a strong possibility.

>And I am really running out of patience for people I normally respect falling for the fallacy it-was-censored-on-social-media-therefore-it's-true.
No it's completely understandable that people apply this heuristic, because so many times things that were true got censored. It's wrong in this case but it's not unreasonable in general. The censors have proven to be malicious actors that are motivated by political agendas. You have to take into account hostile information distribution systems. Until we can restore proper public debate forums that can't be messed with, these heuristics do work and you'll get duped less often by applying it.

>Jimmy needs to present some actual fucking evidence for lab leak his theory already or stop playing useful idiot for the US's geopolitical goal of demonizing China.
I don't know how the politics for this work out, wasn't there lots of EU and US funding involved in the wuhan lab ? It's difficult to search for information about this, but i thought that this was one of those commercial lab for hire services.
>>

 No.469714

>>469700
You are basically saying that Russia is inflicting insufficient pain on the Neocons, to make them pull their fingers out of Ukraine. You can't really use Russia as an excuse for dumping weapons into Ukraine.
>>

 No.469715

>>469711
Mearsheimer certainly is more realistic than most. But when he say's a "frozen conflict" whose definition is he using ? I get the sense the warhawks see a frozen conflict as pause for rearmament, and there is no way the Russians will allow Ukraine to rearm ever again.
Mearsheimer is wrong about NATO it's not a security umbrella for Europe, the US won't fight a nuclear war on Europe's behalf that's a paper-illusion. Nato is a tool for the US to influence EU foreign policy. And NATO will break apart because Turkey is being antagonized out of it and that process began long before the Ukraine shenanigans.
>>

 No.469716

>>469649
The story that Russians were fighting on the side of Ukraine was pure fiction.

What happened in Belgorod was that Ukrainian right wing para militaries tried an incursion into Russian territory and it failed. They used US supplied military vehicles which makes the US look bad. Because in term of formal technicalities the US now supplied an attempt of invading Russia. In practical terms they appear unable of controlling their vassal, because US officials have on several occasions stated the US arms supplies were not eligible for attacks on pre 2014 Russian territory.

These goons also couldn't help them selves and use numberplates that spelled 1488 which is a number that holds significance in fascist circles. I think its a historic date where events transpired that are idealized by certain fascist groups.
>>

 No.469717

File: 1685110327162.jpg (373.96 KB, 1084x1280, 1685107588474.jpg)

>Ukrainians create "zoo" exhibits and have people dress as Russians and act as animals
>Ukrainians serve "blood of Russians" to kids at Halloween parties
>Ukrainians make cakes that look like babies and say they are Russians
>"orcs! subhumans! mongols! asiatic horde!"
>"cho ne skakat je moskal"
>"moskal na nozhi"

Meanwhile, in Russia…
<The Russian heart knows no bounds. Forgive everything, to those who repent.
<"Sorry, father"

God damn it feels good to be a Zigga. And I guess it is too late for pro-UA to switch sides, now they have to double down on supporting bloodthirsty nazis. lol
>>

 No.469718

File: 1685110647042-0.png (890.07 KB, 1080x1613, Screenshot_20230526-141809….png)

File: 1685110647042-1.png (1.3 MB, 1080x1702, Screenshot_20230526-140634….png)

File: 1685110647042-2.jpg (104.13 KB, 934x1032, Fwz95YxWwAA_pGO.jpg)

File: 1685110647042-3.jpg (484.83 KB, 828x811, 1684878278503-0.jpg)

File: 1685110647042-4.jpg (214.31 KB, 787x1030, 1684878278503-1.jpg)

>>469717
Meanwhile, in 🤡🌎 …
>send literal nazis to Russia to terrorise civilians
>"We're fighting Nazis!"

Funny thing is, NAFOids like to scream the "world" supports them. But the only people who support Ukraine are those who are firmly within the Western liberal MSM bubble. What, you think Africans see all the pictures of Ukrainian Nazis and immediately run to CNN to get an "explanation" and latest narrative? Nah, people outside of NA/EU/AUS/NZ (Anglo world) still believe their eyes. Liberal ideology hasn't such a foothold in other places that it can manipulate people into not believing what they see and hear.
>>

 No.469719

>>469714
You can. There would be no need for weapons if Russia did not invade. I hope we give more weapons.
>>

 No.469720

>>469716
>Nooo, why do Ukrainian people hate Rossiya!!!!????
Damn, if only Russians had stayed in Russia.
>>

 No.469721

>>469707
There's plenty of evidence to support the Wuhan lab theory. He doesn't need to repeat it everytime.
>>

 No.469722

>>469721
No, he never repeats it because it doesn't exist. Much like the Russiagate hoax that he had a competent bullshit detector to see through, the Wuhan lab theory is all circumstantial evidence, hearsay, and innuendo. Can't win em all, I suppose.
>>

 No.469723

>>469719
Russia smashed Ukraine for 2 reasons:
They couldn't get a peace deal for the Donbass war like what Minsk 1 & 2 and also Istanbul was about.
They also couldn't get security guarantees with regards to NATO, which is over time trying to put more and more weapons on Russian boarders.

From a realistic perspective failing on those 2 issues was always going to result in a war. And the neocons knew that, they even have stated it publicly, so it stands to reason that they wanted to make this war happen. The neocons certainly did not act towards the best interest of Ukraine since advising them to fight the Russians rather than taking their peace deal left them half destroyed and much worse off.

You are engaging in psychotic moralism, where you say that Russia has no right to security but it's got a duty to uphold the security of Ukraine. You say that the western Ukrainians have a right to live in peace but the eastern Ukrainians in the Donbass don't.

For the actions of the EU and US, i don't see any reasonable justifications, Ukraine isn't a core security interest for either. Even the Poles and the Baltics are not actually in the crosshairs of Moscow. Considering that pumping all those weapons into Ukraine has left the western defenses a little bit weaker because the armories got drained of a bunch of weapons, there can be no argument from defense for this.
>>

 No.469724

>>469722
It's more than circumstantial. But even if it was you're talking about a novel virus that's triggered an epidemic, not some hick that thinks he saw the suspect at the crime scene because all black people look the same to him.
>>

 No.469725

>>469724
Oh I'm not saying it's not important, I'm saying the evidence for it being a lab leak is very weak, and there's some rather inconvenient evidence to the contrary like >>469710 that Wuhan speculators don't seem to want to engage with.
>>

 No.469734

>>469723
FUCK YOU NAZOID! THE COUNTEROFFENSIVE IS UNDER WAY AND RUSSIANS ARE BEING PUSHED MILES EVERY DAY.

Russians in Bakhmut are about to be surrounded. That's why Wagner is running and they're sending mobiks to get destroyed in Bakhmut.

Ukraine is getting everything back, including Crimea. As soon as they rake back Bakhmut. Which will take about 2 weeks for the Ukrainian army as opposed to 9 months for Russians LOLOLOLOLOLOLO
>>

 No.469735

File: 1685202763620.jpg (42.57 KB, 1200x595, doubt-ushanka.jpg)

>>469734
This is like a spectator sport for you, isn't it ?
And you're cheering for your favorite team, and the people you perceive as cheering for the other team, you call them "zoid"

Can you see how irritating this is for people who aren't interested in tribalism.

The chances of Ukraine having combat power left over after a long war of attrition to contest Crimea is very questionable to say the least.
>>

 No.469736

>>469723
>You are engaging in psychotic moralism, where you say that Russia has no right to security
Russian security lies inside Russia. Ukraine does not belong to Russia.
>>

 No.469737

>>469736
This would be true if the neocons had left Ukraine alone, and you'd be advocating for a neutral Ukraine that is neither US nor Russia dominated. But the moment the US imperialists set up their CIA operations that were arming ukro-fashists this became a security competition between the US and Russia.

If the US had been able to convert Ukraine into a NATO base they could mass US troops in a strategically important location directly next to Russia. So in theory you are trying to argue that the US ought to have a right to do troop-build up next to Russia. If we are being realistic for a moment and consider that Russia is a superpower that won't allow another superpower like the US to do that kind of stuff, you are basically just arguing that the US ought to have the right to provoke proxy wars.

You certainly are not arguing for Ukrainian sovereignty. If you have any doubt as to Ukraine's status of a US Vassal that is fighting a proxy war on behalf of the imperial bourgeoisie you only need to look at who's the biggest source of funding for the Ukrainian state.

You are not upholding a position that would have the consequence of Ukrainians living peaceful prosperous lives. Complaining about the Russians is not equivalent to guarding actually existing peace.
>>

 No.469739

>>469736
To whom does Ukraine belong?
>>

 No.469743

>>469735
AAAAAAA SLAVA ZUCCHINI! HEROYAM TORTELLINI!
>>

 No.469744

>>469739
Me.
>>

 No.469745

>>469739
Ukrainian people.
>>

 No.469746

>>469737
>you'd be advocating for a neutral Ukraine
Ukraine was neutral until Russia invaded. So were Finland and Sweden. Nice own goal.
>So in theory you are trying to argue that the US ought to have a right to do troop-build up next to Russia.
Yes. Russia did the same thing in 2022. It would have been okay if they really were only in a training exercise.
>You certainly are not arguing for Ukrainian sovereignty.
I am, and sovereign nations have the right to make their own deals and security arrangements, including joining NATO.
>Complaining about the Russians is not equivalent to guarding actually existing peace.
Russian soldiers are lower than animals and we will only have peace when they go back to their shithole country or lie dead in the Ukrainian dirt. At least then they can do something productive and fertilize the land.
>>

 No.469747

>>469745
Can you define one of those?
>>

 No.469748

>>469747
People who are citizens of Ukraine.
>>

 No.469749

>>469748
Seems rather circular.
>>

 No.469750

>>469748
Would you agree also that Crimea belongs to citizens of Crimea and Donbass belongs to citizens of Donbass?
>>

 No.469753

>>469746
>Russian soldiers are lower than animals
>Russophobia? Doesn't exist.
You nazis were just waiting for an excuse to dehumanize someone.
>>

 No.469755

File: 1685277474190.png (78.42 KB, 389x374, cringeposte.png)

>>469746
>Ukraine was neutral until Russia invaded.
Certainly not, the US did a regime change color revolution in 2014 that can't be considered neutral.

>Finland and Sweden
Are largely irrelevant in this discussion, but those 2 countries had military collaboration with the US for decades so they weren't neutral in anything but official paperwork. The change in the official stance is nothing but the paperwork catching up with a reality that has existed for a long time. Neither of these countries can really threaten Russia, because their military would get stuck in the Tundra, they could only attack Saint Peters-burg (Leningrad) in which case they would find out what Stalin would have done with nukes during WW2.

>Russia did the same thing in 2022
Russia did not do a troop build up next to the US, the last time they did that, it was the 70s, they were part of the Soviet Union and it was called "the Cuba crisis".

>sovereign nations have the right to make their own deals and security arrangements, including joining NATO.
You do realize that under Yanukovych (2010-2014) Ukraine made an investment deal with the Russians and then the US regime-changed the Ukrainian government to undoo that and install Poroshenko, who then did what the US wanted: Take out IMF loans and implement neoliberal austerity restructuring and privatization of public industries.

Also as we have seen with Europe joining NATO largely means giving up sovereignty and accepting US foreign policy dictates. Also you can't really proclaim that countries have a right to join NATO because Russia tried in 2000 and they weren't given that right.

>Russian soldiers are lower than animals
What are you trying to tell me ? That you are a racist ?
Do you really think that will make you more convincing ?
>>

 No.469758

Mercouris has an interesting discussion about the corporate-media commentariat demanding escalation to WW3.

https://invidious.snopyta.org/watch?v=Lna9K6beGCA
>>

 No.469764

Max Blumenthal and Aaron Mate have an interesting hypothesis. During the Battle of Bakhmut, Prigozhin (the guy from the Wagner group) was constantly complaining about lacking weapons. He also was engaged in political feuds with the higher-ups in the Russian military which looked like disunity. That stuff might have been a psyop to trick the Ukrainians into sending more military into the "meatgrinder".

https://piped.kavin.rocks/watch?v=K5lRmQAo1f8
>>

 No.469766

=Moscow drone raid==
https://nitter.net/NOELreports/status/1663401925721587713#m
>>

 No.469767

File: 1685437834260.png (2.68 MB, 1600x1066, ClipboardImage.png)

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/ukraine/putin-and-psychology-nuclear-brinksmanship
Putin and the Psychology of Nuclear Brinksmanship
<The War in Ukraine Hinges on One Man’s Thoughts and Feelings
>We care about individual lives, but the fates of nameless, faceless collectives leave us cold.
>>

 No.469769

File: 1685448396548.jpeg (17.29 KB, 248x189, what a story.jpeg)

>>469766
That's what winning looks like, NAFOids!
>>

 No.469770

Erdogan won the election in Turkey, that means that Turkey will stay neutral.
Mercuries does a good job breaking down the elections, but he considers Turkey's move to prevent NATO naval forces from entering the Black-sea as a pro Russia move, I'm not so sure about that interpretation, because Turkey has a rational self interest in preventing big naval battles from taking place so close to to their shores.

https://invidious.snopyta.org/watch?v=xczmfAePsdI

I think the neocons were eyeing to blow up the Turk-stream pipeline. That's Erdongan's prized pet project, and now that he remains in power they can't do that anymore. Because if they did Erdogan would break up NATO over that. He could demand that other NATO countries honor their defense pact obligations and defend Turkey against the US attacking Turkish infrastructure. Since NATO is dominated by the US, that's not very likely and Turkey would NATexit.

On the very remote chance that other European countries do take their defense pact obligation seriously, the US does the NATexit and NATO becomes a solely European organization, and that's the birth of a integrated European military force. I restate this is only a very remote possibility.
>>

 No.469771

>>469767
>The War in Ukraine Hinges on One Man’s Thoughts and Feelings
bougie idealism
>>

 No.469777

>>469771
kek, the great man hinge of history
>>

 No.469790

File: 1685617341292.jpg (136.15 KB, 1170x1171, zizek huligan.jpg)

Mein Gott sniff, Zizek has been boot-licking so hard that Ukraine became Maoist

https://english.hani.co.kr/arti/english_edition/english_editorials/1091857.html
<the left refers to what they call “people’s wars” as something that characterizes specifically Asian emancipatory movements.
<However, does the term “people’s war” not fit perfectly what goes on in Ukraine
>>

 No.469792

>>469790
He'll never be taken seriously again after he decided to be a NATO dog over the Ukraine proxy war. What a sad end to his career.
>>

 No.469794

File: 1685627320275-0.png (804.55 KB, 1080x1708, Screenshot_20230601-154531….png)

File: 1685627320275-1.png (522.34 KB, 1080x2003, Screenshot_20230601-154508….png)

CRIMEA = PSYCHOLOGICALLY TAKEN

>Today the occupiers have a holiday: supposedly we did not keep our promise to enter Crimea before the end of spring. But there is such a thing as a psychological counter-offensive - to inspire the enemy with the inevitability of defeat. I think that we have completely succeeded. Purely psychologically, we took the Crimea. As a military man, I will say that this is sometimes more important than real clashes with the enemy. This is an unconditional victory for our army, which will go down in military history textbooks,” Budanov said.

>At the same time, the search for adviser to the head of the office of the President of Ukraine Mykhailo Podolyak, who was going to give a press conference on the Yalta embankment, was unsuccessful.

https://t.me/antiseptic_channel/1069

Ukraine is using nuclear cope weapons. LOL
>>

 No.469796

>>469792
Zizek made a good critique of pureᵀᴹ ideology, but yeah his geopol takes are atrocious.

>469794
<Purely psychologically, we took the Crimea.
The level of cope has indeed exceeded the measurement scale.

But if these people can be pleased with fictional victories… I wonder…
>>

 No.469801

File: 1685649042557.png (2.47 MB, 1600x1066, ClipboardImage.png)

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/ukraine/protect-europe-let-ukraine-join-nato-right-now
To Protect Europe, Let Ukraine Join NATO—Right Now
<No Country Is Better at Stopping Russia
>Ukraine has demonstrated that its military is no charity case.
>NATO clearly needs a bigger and better-equipped force.
>Ukraine may as well already be a NATO state.
>>

 No.469805

>>469801
>To Protect Europe
Go neutral, and stay out of the power-struggle between super-powers.

>Ukraine has demonstrated that its military is no charity case.
It's a lost and found box for old cold-war era weapons.

>NATO clearly needs a bigger and better-equipped force.
For doubling down on failure ? Provoking a nuclear exchange with Russia ? That money would be better spend on social services and productive forces.

>Ukraine may as well already be a NATO state.
True but it's pretty much the main reason it's getting destroyed.
>>

 No.469829

File: 1685740713377.jpg (70.27 KB, 817x718, nuke-controle.jpg)

I'll be dammed, the burger empire actually wants to re-engage nuclear arms control treaties

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2023/06/02/white-house-wants-to-engage-russia-on-nuclear-arms-control-post-treaty/
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 No.469833

>>469750
Those aren't separate countries and were not given assurances of autonomy, unlike Ukraine.

>>469753
>Y-you N-Nazi!
Yes, how dare I call out people who bomb civilians murder prisoners, and behave like subhumans. If Russian soldiers want to regain their humanity, they should go back to their shithole of a country.
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 No.469834

>>469755
>Certainly not, the US did a regime change color revolution in 2014 that can't be considered neutral.
Repeating it won't no ake it true. Get over it. Ukraine will never belong to Russian animals. The actual humans in Russia should stand up for themselves.
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 No.469835

>>469805
>power-struggle between super-powers.
There is no such thing. There is only one superpower.
>It's a lost and found box for old cold-war era weapons.
To which Russians have lost.
>Muh nooks
I wish a motherfucker would.
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 No.469837

>>469833
>I'm the arbiter of who can be considered part of humanity vs subhuman.
There were people in history that tried this line on the Russians before, and that didn't end well either.
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 No.469838

>>469837
keep coping with your nazoid exceptionalism lol

what happened in ww1 to your invincible Great Russia, what happened in the Crimean war lol?
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 No.469839

>>469835
>There is no such thing. There is only one superpower.
China, Russia and India are superpowers too maybe Yurope joins that club if it uncucks from the US.

>To which Russians have lost.
The mainstream media keeps telling you that because they don't want you to pressure politicians to engage in peace negotiations. If that diplomacy-block will be upheld for long enough, the Ukrainian state will eventually get entirely destroyed, and the historical Ukraine might cease to exist.
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 No.469840

File: 1685810397966.jpg (74 KB, 650x532, hammer-the-fash.jpg)

>>469838
>nazoid exceptionalism
You are projecting
You're the one trying to downgrade other people as "subhumans"
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 No.469845

Apparently Zelensky was given a dressing down by Modi of India at the recent G7 meeting and he was so mad about it he decided to avoid a meeting with Lula de Silva of Brazil right after. Lula was then so angry about being ghosted by Zelensky that he got Putin on the phone right after.

https://invidious.snopyta.org/watch?v=FRH7FRCpYqE
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 No.469847

>>469845
Oh bother if Mercouris is right, the neocons are going to pick a fight with India and Brazil now too, aren't they ?
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 No.469850

>>469839
>China, Russia and India are superpowers
Delusional.
<Superpower describes a state or supranational union that holds a dominant position characterized by the ability to exert influence or project power on a global scale
So just the US. Russia can't even project power on its own borders.
>The mainstream media keeps telling you that because they don't want you to pressure politicians to engage in peace negotiations.
I don't need the media to tell me that killing more vermin is a good thing. Same goes for Russian soldiers outside of their natural habitat.
>If that diplomacy-block will be upheld for long enough, the Ukrainian state will eventually get entirely destroyed, and the historical Ukraine might cease to exist.
Keep telling yourself that. How will you cope after the next disaster to befall Puccia?
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 No.469851

>>469840
Russian animals degraded themselves by starting a war and behaving worse than the most vile beasts. There are good Russians that do not support this war and actively fight against their government. They have retained their humanity because they do not prostitute themselves to the dictator Putin.
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 No.469853

File: 1685878152076.jpeg (18.38 KB, 474x266, keke.jpeg)

>>469840
>You are projecting
what, you didn't claim that muh Russians couldn't get btfod because.. *checks notes* "There were people in history that tried this line on the Russians before"?

I just pointed out the obvious - that there "were people in history" that completely assfucked your "special" Russians lol

>You're the one trying to downgrade other people as "subhumans"
I know your brainwashed mind sees the same "NAFOids" everywhere nazoid, but I'm a different anon

also your pic is fucking hilarious, you know that russian nazoids call other russians who don't support the war - "выруси" - a rough translasion would be "russian etchnic traitors"

the irony is completely lost on a westoid dumbfuck leftoid lmao

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