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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

"The anons of the past have only shitposted on the Internets about the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it."
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 No.479783[Reply]

Why do leftists ignore central banks and the finance industry in all their economic analysis?

https://www.socialistparty.org.uk/articles/94110/06-04-2022/the-truth-about-inflation-and-how-to-fight-it/
https://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/socialist-standard/article/marxian-theory-inflation/study-guides/marxian-theory-inflation/

Every leftist publication I can find blames inflation and the cost of living crisis on "muh greedy corporations" and "muh incompetent politicians". Not a single mention of deficit spending, fiat money printing or fractional reserve banking. Why is that? Do you guys actually think that banks are completely blameless in this system you call capitalism?
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 No.479817

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>>479808
Good poast
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 No.479858

Mostly because once central banks exist, what function they play is not about capital or a productive economy at all, but management of assets at the highest level. They are the stronghold of the proprietors, and indicate the victory of property over society. There is no more "revolution" if that happens. If that happens, the people have lost.
Humanity lost as a result of the war of 1914, and everything since has been the continuation of the end of the world. The future refused to change.
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 No.479859

It is worth noting that Marxists believed the "second revolution" - anything you would call "socialism" - was far in the future, perhaps more than a century removed from the time they wrote or longer. Anything that would have allowed socialism as a meaningful proposition didn't exist as a worked-out plan until the last third of the 20th century. By then, socialism made clear that it did not include most of humanity, who were never wanted nor needed, and so we got the world we got. There was never going to be anything else. They were never going to let you in their society.

The early socialists mostly were reformers who wanted a nicer capitalism, and at most suggested that "hey, maybe we should have less wars and allow the world to unite peacefully instead of do the things we know you're all planning to do." Had it been allowed to exist on its own - had the middle class and proprietors seen correctly that they were being lined up to be wiped out, and their enemy was always above, not below - history turns out very different, starting around the middle of the 19th century, in ways that make 1900 nearly unrecognizable. Among the changes is that the British Empire is wiped out on all fronts, ending with an invasion of the island by the end of the century and a very violent extermination of the eugenists and their fellow travelers in all countries of the world. This is unlikely to ever happen for a variety of reasons, but that would be a bare minimum to avert the course we're on, with unknown results. Very likely the world would turn into a dystopian hell, and this would be better than the world we're going to become. There would have been an end to that world, when the next thing arises.

As it is, there is nothing that can possibly change this world that is realistically possible. It went on for too long, and it is now global. There isn't even an idea that suggests anything should be different, let alone could be different. That's how far gone we are.
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 No.479860

In this "world line", you might have salvaged something until 1989, but it was increasingly little, and humanity didn't just lack any good in them, but were nowhere near as smart as they believed themselves to be. All of those brains chopped told the rulers that humans really were more animal, including themselves, and that's why the rulers embraced acting like Satanic retards.

After 1989, world history is locked in. None of what happens now would happen unless the rulers were not confident that this was inevitable and desirable and the only idea they have left. This idea was always at the apex of human civilization, so it is not surprising it did turn out this way.

Eventually this beast will do its thing, and the next thing will start - I expect in 40 or 50 years they will memory hole everything they did now and act like they dindu nothing. But, all that was done will last forever. Humans, in total, are irredeemably retarded. There is nothing intellectual in them, and the religion they chose will wipe out any sign of independent thought they have. There will be attempts to build something, but humans have become so degraded that it is improper to speak of the concepts that once held spiritual and political currency after long enough. Already, large swathes of humanity have given up completely, not expecting this to ever be different. For themselves, it is certainly over, and they're going through the motions out of a sense that maybe divine intervention happens, or because they have nothing better to do but live. There is nothing "up there" that would construct anything. Their last hope is that they have some super "wonder weapon" that will allow them to become immortal gods or super-computers, and this is the greatest folly. The Fall of Man will be complete. Failed race.
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 No.480007

>>479860
<dooomer misanthrope ramblings
sigh
>After 1989, world history is locked in.
After the Soviet fall, reactionary counter revolution undid a lot of progress in the world. However history is not 'locked in', because that's idealist nonsense. History is just stories about the past, which sometime are true.


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 No.478125[Reply]

The supposedly left-wing desire to obsess over the "racist, settler-colonialist Zionism" of the Israeli state is a way to obscure how the conflict is connected to capitalism, specifically, how it emerges from the failures of capitalist politics. What the so-called left has managed to achieve through their exhortation to focus on the plight of the Palestinian people is to transform empathy for suffering into a thought-terminating cliche, wielding it as a a blunt instrument of censorship, and at the expense of the very people who they claim to have empathy for. In true Orwellian fashion, they have managed to reconcile their empathy for Palestinian suffering with unwavering support for Hamas, free from any cognitive dissonance.

The extreme rhetoric and spectacular protests of the contemporary left is little more than a means of pressuring mainstream capitalist politicians, and even the desire to "defund Israel” (a policy that far-right Zionists also support) is likely just a way to scrub away the issue of Israel/Palestine in U.S. politics. Ultimately, their goal is not to support the liberation of the Palestinian people, but to be “on the right side of history", to wield moral authority over others by appearing to side with the most vulnerable belligerents. They perversely enjoy the fact that Palestinians will continue to be slaughtered, proudly parading the numbers of dead so that their "progressive" mode of politics can remain relevant.

But the greatest crime that the contemporary left commits is to tell people that they can be petty-bourgeois radicals, nationalists and fundamentalists, yet also be progressive - that socialism is unnecessary for the cause of progress and justice. The post-colonial world is the history of peoples living together but being shoehorned into nation-states. This is the outcome of the vision of the League of Nations and of the United Nations; it is a world of nation-states, and therefore a world of widespread national repression. There is no way that the nation-states which emerged from decolonization can be accepted as progressive or liberatory in the socialist sense, and the reason why the Soviet Union refused to join the League of Nations in the first place was to reject this very vision of a world of nation-states.

How we should interpret the Israel-Hamas war is not as a noble struggle for liberation against the forces of oppression, but as a capitalist political negotiation through violence. The goaPost too long. Click here to view the full text.
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 No.479811

>>478252
Still writing it. I can post the incomplete version if you want.
>>478255
This is pure capitalist realism. I critiqued this attitude in an article about the Russo-Ukrainian war. I can post it here if you want.
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 No.479813

>>479811
You're a wanker and you just want to feel smarter than other people, and fixating too much on this alienates you and makes it more difficult for you to effectively work towards change. If you want to make a difference, stop complaining about other people for not phrasing everything to meet your sensibilities. You can be of value, but you choose to sit around in your armchair jerking off to your own opinions instead. Reconsider your approach.
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 No.479818

>>479813
Speak for yourself. It's better to do nothing at all than to participate in pseudo-activity that only simulates change. I've chosen to spend my time critiquing that so that we can start genuinely acting towards a serious goal rather than participating in a glorified circlejerk masquerading as progress. You're the wanker, mate.
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 No.479819

Sounds like you have a lot of straw men residing in your head rent-free, OP.
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 No.479821

>>479819
Ya I agree I didn't do a good job at fairly representing those I was critiquing


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 No.477809[Reply][Last 50 Posts]

You need a license to:
- drive a car
- hunt/fish
-own a gun
- vote
-travel
- trade
-operate machinery
- do skilled labor

Yet, the most consequential job in the world requires no licensing: RAISING A FAMILY.


Is it any wonder why so many kids turn out all fucked up?
Too many halfass adults feel entitled by virtue of age to have a spouse and offspring.
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 No.479041

>>479039
Enrichment is only necessary for certain reactor designs that rely on U-235. However, there are nuclear reactors designs that don't. Heavy water reactors and molten salt reactors can run on natural uranium or thorium.
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 No.479043

>>479041
>Enrichment is only necessary for certain reactor designs that rely on U-235.
>However, there are nuclear reactors designs that don't.
>Heavy water reactors and molten salt reactors can run on natural uranium or thorium.
I know, but we're talking about a kid from the 90s
for context see these posts
>>479033
>>479038
He probably didn't build an advanced reactor design as a hobby.
I'm still confounded how he build any reactor design.
Even a very basic nuclear pile would be very hard to pull off.
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 No.479771

>>479043
He used radioactive pellets from broken smoke detectors.
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 No.479772

>>479771
>He used radioactive pellets from broken smoke detectors.
Lol is that the reason those were banned for a while ?

Anyway did it work did he get any energy out of it ?
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 No.479774

>>479772
I think so. Look up "Radioactive Boy Scout." It was from the 1990s.


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 No.479729[Reply]

judging government based on their policy is wrong.
judging government based on what said government said is wrong.
judging government based on what the people said is wrong.
potraying government as hating queers and minorities is wrong.
stop potraying goverment as if they monitor their citizen 24/7 to see sign if they do things that are considered queer or againts making hetero familliy. and then arrest them becuase they hate queer people and put them on scary labour/torture/cell camp. it is wrong to potray government like this.
stop potraying government as if their country have every region filled with anti-queer/ anti-minority people who are the same as american conservative level people. it is wrong to potray government and country as that.
always remember to specify everytime everywhere.
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 No.479731

>>479729
Not sure where you're going with this.

Can you explain for example the first one
>judging government based on their policy is wrong.
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 No.479732

>>479729
>judging government based on their policy is wrong.
no it isn't
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 No.479734

>>479732
it actually is but not for faggot op reasons. If a bourgeois government finances its military it can be sure to be used against the proles. If a DotP does the same policy it can certainly be a good thing. Liberals get into the policy only mindset and end up supporting backwards policies like higher tax rates for the sake of "public works" ie paying off your campaign backers.
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 No.479768

>>479734
>If a bourgeois government finances its military it can be sure to be used against the proles. If a DotP does the same policy it can certainly be a good thing.
This is true, it matters what class interests are served. But here is a question: did socialist countries actually use the same policies as capitalist countries ?
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 No.479786

>>479768
yes, this is especially true for elementary policy like setting sales tax in regional governments. Policy is broadly defined such that the capitalist kernel is removed and it spans multiple modes of production.


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 No.466060[Reply][Last 50 Posts]

The more older I become the more I understand just how strong is my urge to murder other communists.

Almost every one of them is some kind of a sperg, an idealist, a dogmoid automaton, a lib, a nationalist, a culture warrior, a grifter, a socialite, I could go on and on.
I can't fucking stand you. Every time I talk to one I imagine him choking on his blood, and this image gives me a relief.

First thing that triggers me immensely is the obsession with philosophy. Every time some idealist sperg mentions dialectics to me it takes me titanic effort to not pick up a chair and bash their head into the nearest wall with it.
Seriously, it got so bad that I sometimes daydream about choking Engels and Hegel with a stupid smile on my face.
I'm now convinced that there can not be such thing as a proletarian philosophy. Philosophy is a mind poison of the ruling classes, always has been, and it poisoned the minds of the leaders of the workers movement due to them all being intellectuals. All according to Marxism lol.
This obsession is so widespread that I sometimes wonder if I am the only one who came to Marxism through the study of history and not through some philosophic elitist drivel. It tells

The second thing is idealism (being an insufferable sperg is closely related). It seems like you just can't expect communists to be pragmatic in this day and age. It's like they are stuck between the Scylla of maximalism and the Charybdis of defeatism. It's either "If I can't dance, it's not my revolution!" or "capitalism is actually socialism because they say so". It seems like communists don't have the patience or the mental capacity to just keep fucking grinding to their aims, slowly and methodically, using everyone and everything they can, and patiently waiting for their moment. No, they just NEED to sperg out and express their very important opinion (that 10 out of 10 times is some banal idealism or empty populist platitudes) on every little matter!
At moments like this it usually takes me two to three cigarettes to calm down.

And as we touched on it already, lets discuss the third thing - cheap populism. It is so widespread that I got in more fights over populist rhetoric than over any other thing. It seems like every communist takes his audience for fucking 10-year old kids who can be manipulated by simple tricks. Hey, you know that I can SEE what you are doing? You know we're all adults here? Hey, look me in the Post too long. Click here to view the full text.
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 No.479759

Eugene is a weaponized general AI. We are being targeted by the Big Three. It's over.
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 No.479764

>>479759
Fear Eugene.
There is no Big Three. Only AM.
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 No.479765

>>479764
Who or what is Eugene or AM?


AM as in "ante meridiem"?
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 No.479766

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 No.479767

>>479726
<false dichotomy of left right bourgeois politics, to divide and conquer the proles
>>479766
>Based
why ?


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 No.479738[Reply]

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2024/03/12/degd-m12.html

Latin America
<Argentine strike wave continues

>In recent weeks, Argentine unions have called strikes by teachers, aeronautical workers, railway workers and others to put forward salary demands due to high inflation and economic policies promoted by President Javier Milei.


< River-boat operators and crews in Buenos Aires Province struck following a legally mandated cooling-off period. The struggle is over wages. They may be joined by river workers in Santa Fe province, which borders Buenos Aires, along the Parana River, whose cooling-off period expires on March 15. Ships that are still sailing will dock at their destination, download their cargo, with the strikers remaining on board during the duration of the work-stoppage.

< On March 7 transit workers in metropolitan Buenos Aires carried out their second strike this month. The strike is over unpaid wages and wage increases. The trade unions that represent transit workers defined the underlying wage issue as the protection of workers’ buying power.

<Women protest against gig work in Quito, Ecuador


>Thousands of women marched in Quito on March 8 (International Women’s Day). The demonstrators denounced the rise of contingent employment, due to the economic policies of current president Daniel Noboa. The demonstrators also carried signs condemning the ongoing Gaza genocide.


>The demonstrators rallied in Quito’s historic San Francisco Square. At the rally, women read manifestos denouncing Noboa’s policies, the war and conditions of increasing misery and poverty.

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 No.479747

>>479746
Why do you think they want to allow anyone to live? There is no "natural" cause for this. It's pure rent extraction because they want to price working class people out of the city. Out of society. Out of existence.

Every time this is naturalized and excused as something other than what it is, the enclosure continues and people are nullified before they could even begin to act in their own defense. Paralysis of resistance is inherent to the entire German ideology.
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 No.479748

Also funny that strikes of service workers that work with poor people are being elevated - strikes to punish the poor basically, not that legal services for poor people exist in this cursed world and it's all a joke. But, it's telling that they're cutting away the last pretenses that the institutions have anything to do with "helping" anyone. We really are on our own, lined up. That was always the plan.

I just go on expecting the worst. I said when COVID started the key choice will be when the workers will be told to sacrifice the losers and glorify it, and that this "choice" would be made for them. Only way this could end. The good news is that most of the people are not so enthusiastic and make their displeasure clear with all of this. It's too late for the losers. We were selected to die a long time ago, and if we live, it will only be the most perilous existence. This will be much worse when Nazification mandates such civic participation. It always does that.

I will tell everyone while I can - do not believe decency ever appeals to those who glorify indecency in all of its forms. That's the worst thing you can do. Showing the utmost contempt for such glorification of indecency, calling them the fags they are, puts them on edge. They threaten and insist that you must uphold decencies while they mandate more and more indecency. It is simple enough to show them the true hatred, instead of the slimy snark and faggotry of their failed race.
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 No.479754

>>479746
>a massive amount of it is just land speculation driving prices up across the board because literally everyone and every industry uses land & buildings & natural resources.
You are right that land is a natural monopoly, especially for real-estate in cities and agricultural land. Large hedge-funds have been able to abuse that in many regards.

However nothing is/can stop people from building floating houses and grow cities or towns into the ocean. It might take a while until all the engineering aspects are worked out and the most effective technological pathways are found. That famous city in Italy with building on stilts that was just an early attempt.

Storm-proof stable(non-sway) floating foundations are already done and cost efficient.

Sewage is currently stored in tanks, and then periodically pumped off by a sewage-barge. That could use some improvements. Sewage could be decontaminated, purified, dehydrated, then mixed with cheap sand to create soil for floating agriculture barges. People would get payed for their sh…bodily-contributions while also foiling the ploys of agro-land speculators, one dump at a time.

Electrical supply is wave-power, solar and wind. There is grid-power based on underwater cables derived from houseboat-supplies, but it's too expensive to scale up. However, 70% energy efficient, focused microwave power links exist. It's good enough for supplemental grid-energy used in conjunction with renewables. Nicola Tesla dreamed about creating wireless energy towers, and now something vaguely similar might actually become viable. And it's very cheap, a microwave link rectenna is basically just a wire mesh. Installing that is cheaper than a satellite dish.

The micro-wave-link Power-Towers could have small modular nuclear reactors, they would dump their waste-heat into the surrounding ocean water, by passive radiators. The floating buildings could use heat-pumps to collect that heat to make hot-water supply and building heat, from the same ocean water. Basically remote-heat without any pipes.

People would move around on city-barges instead of city-buses/trams. It's slow but very energy efficient, cheap, quiet and pleasant to look at or ride in.
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 No.479761

>>479754
>small modular nuclear reactors
A scam if there ever was one. Nuclear power should be big and industrial to maximize efficiency. Not small and numerous to maximize risk.
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 No.479762

>>479761
You're not wrong, a 300 megawatt SMR is about 5% less efficient than a 10 gigawatt whopper. But SMRs are already developed, so we might as well use em. And they do have very small exclusion zones, which makes them particularly easy to slot into a city design. The risks on both design strategies is very low.


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 No.479612[Reply]

What is the scientific explanation for why different races of human are not different subspecies. I would like an actual answer rather than ban I am not trolling.
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 No.479625

Will also say - white people vastly overestimate their "smarts", believe in the stupidest symbols and virtue signaling because they've been trained to become fags of the lowest sort. The people who bray the most about who the smart/stupid races are are visibly stupid degenerates justifying their perversion. Usually the legit racists remain quiet and let the enablers shit up the world for them - and the enablers are trained like dogs to obey, which says something about what the white race became. Us Yakubians did it to ourselves I'm afraid.
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 No.479626

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>>479612
>races
that term was depreciated
-the scientific community was too embarrassed about 18 and 19 century "race-science". They were frauds, measuring the size of people's skulls to make it look sciency and then just made shit up.
-We also discovered genetics, it turns out a lot of old-timy race-classification were completely wrong, Dog-races for pets are mostly just brand-names. For proper science based on genetic stuff the word sub-species is used, to avoid confusion.

It's all very un-intuitive
We have over 10000 different ant-sub-species. Many of whom only have slightly different antlers/antennas.
Sometimes there are animals that look very different but their genetics make them the same species, while other animals that look very similar have genetics that make them separate species.

<What is the scientific explanation for why there are no human subspecies

There used to be lots of human subspecies like for example Neanderthals and Denisovans. But they all died out. We don't really know why. There's just one type of human now, basically us. There is lots of speculations about why human subspecies were extinct, but they tend to be light on scientific evidence, often leaning into the genre of pre-historic-fiction.
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 No.479634

>>479626
so its phenotype vs genotype?
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 No.479638

>>479634
I can sort of understand why you'd think this, but no, not really.

Most of the ways of categorizing organisms that predate high fidelity scientific measurement instruments don't really work, it doesn't map 1:1 onto any of the more recent scientific knowledge. Many are hellbent on doing that anyway and are attempting to shoe-horn genetic data into racial categories that originated in the 17 century for example. To the great chagrin of geneticists, i might add. Which understandably do not want to have biases injected into their work.

I will say that the genetic rout probably isn't the last page in this book. My hunch is that organisms might be described as a self replicating pattern that adapts and changes over time. As well as connecting to other parts of a biome through matter, energy and information exchange.
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 No.479722

>>479638
Gee… like, I don't know, an assembly of objects working in concert. What do we call those objects? "Organs"? Heavens no, that is against The Science. Organisms can't have organs, don't be silly!


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 No.304257[Reply][Last 50 Posts]

This is the thread for good news.

People have a tendency to focus on what is going wrong and miss out on what is going well.
I'm also suspecting that there is a doomer astroturf going on.

To counteract this a little i want to ask you to post uplifting news.
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 No.478810

>>478804
These guys think hitting thirty is old age.
>OMG IM SO OLD BCUZ IM THIRTY AND I DONT HAVE A GF
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 No.478811

>>351336
Lets go surfin now
Everyones learnin how
Come on a surfin safari with meee……
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 No.479554

I think it is pretty comforting that most socialists thought that the young USSR would be doomed if Germany would not follow up (They had the largest socdem, socialist and communist party around that time with the SPD). But USSR won their civil war, developed so rapidly, defend against Nazi Germany and be the second superpower within 30 years and constant besieging. Nowadays they would have it even easier with modern computers and internet to make a fairly sophisticated actual planned economy.
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 No.479653

tankies should focus on defending things more. "talks" are manipulative and have always been like that.
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 No.479665

>>479554
>Nowadays they would have it even easier with modern computers and internet to make a fairly sophisticated actual planned economy.
Yeah if the imperial moron-gang sets off WW3, the silver lining will be the unraveling of the global order to the point where another USSR2.0 can rise. And this time around it won't be held back by technological barriers. If capitalism survives that at all, it'll never be able to go beyond social democracy with lots of well-fare, good public services and strong labor protections.

>>479653
>tankies should focus on defending things more.
Probably yes, a lot of contemporary anti-communism tries to justify it self on the basis of lies about the history of socialism in the 20th century.


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 No.479520[Reply]

>all wars are bankers wars
And other such myopic oversimplifications about the world. Views are frequently paired with goldbuggery and delusions about cryptotokens.

I think we can all agree that finance capitalists are scum. Even feudal lords and slave masters had regular power struggles with finance capitalists trying to control society through usury. The problem is some right wingers think they're the only problematic capitalist and have difficulty broadening their scope to a more systemic social critique. How we we get these dumbos to see the bigger picture?
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 No.479594

>>479593
Do you think you're anything other than a fag? Go away. You have no insight and no one is intimidated by the snark any more. That worked during Obama, but the masses have adapted. Resistance is futile.
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 No.479595

>>479545
think about it this way, if money flows through all of society it can command labor-power and collect surplus value. In a slave society the slave masters command labor power and collect surplus value.

>>479587
>And slaves actually were bred,
No, slave-societies never managed to breed slaves, they had to keep catching new ones. One of the reasons why feudal societies could beat slave societies was because peasants reproduced. Slave population have extremely low fertility, nowhere near population replacement levels.
>down to fucking science. Like cattle.
Also No. Cattle are the result of breeding via artificial selection. That only works on a few rare species like cows, dogs, pigs, sheep, horses, etc. Most species can't be bred, including humans. Humans like most species lack the biological features that make that possible. Humans also have a very long reproduction cycle, so even if it was biologically possible, it would take too long.

It's probably possible to breed Elephants from a biological standpoint (there is some debate about it, still) but elephant reproduction cycles are also very long, and that's why elephant breeding isn't really a thing. Nobody wants to invest and wait a thousand years for the returns.
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 No.479606

>>479595
People, including myself, have tried to explain these things to this retard for weeks, even months, on end and he never listens. At worst he will log off and rage quit for a while then come back. At best he will just ignore everything you say and just keep repeating to same stupid debunked talking points over and over again. He just wants the attention.
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 No.479616

>>479539
No, the difference is how the labour-power of the slave was treated in comparision to a proletarian. The slave is entirely tied to their labour-power, selling the slave is selling their labour-power once and for all to be used by the buyer. The proletarian has to sell his labour piece by piece on the market on which he entirely depends upon to sell labour-power as a commoditty (something exchanged only because it has no use-value and the receiever has some use-value out of it).

The slave is not tied to the irrational market, the proletarian is. The slave's existence as lifetime labour-power is guaranteed by his buyer. The proletarian existence has none of this security even when selling of labour-power
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 No.479622

>>479616
When farm laborers were kicked off their land and entered the cities, it was understood to all that their condition was effectively slavery. They had no legal rights, no legal standing, nothing at all that the bourgeois city had to respect or regard. The only distinction is that there wasn't formally a deed saying this person is property in total of another person - but what is an employment contract and the worksheet every worker was obligated to show to receive pay? What is their condition if they are obligated by contract to police their entire life on and off the clock to conform to the dictates of the city and their boss? In an economic and moral sense, the proletarian was considered devoid of any more rights than a slave, and would be treated accordingly. You might convince proletarians to spit on slaves or nigras, or sell them some ideology, but no one is confused about the nature of their relation to society, and what their lives have been. Usually the behavior of slaves is that they don't want this situation to be worse, because existential wank is not a condition laborers in general care for. That's always been an aristocratic vice - and it is an aristocratic vice rather than a bourgeois vice or the vice of producers or technocrats. The typical middle class bourgeois man is not a frilly pissant, but someone thinking how he can make a buck, swap his wife at the parties, and play the part of the game he is allowed to play. Usually the bourgeois man is practical rather than given over directly to fetishism by some blind and unknowable impulse. The reasons why middle class people buy into fads are not difficult to discern if you are allowed to make comparisons with reality, and disregard the mythology regarding social class and what this really is. No middle class person, bourgeois person, is unaware of his own situation and relations to others of his kind at a basic level. It would be impossible for him not to be, and the bourgeois man is more acutely aware of this than any other class, precisely because the bourgeois life is a precarious one by the standards of history. We didn't always have a stable population of city-dwellers with this particular concept of civic participation, where they adopted a very alien manner of speaking compared to what humans had been doing for centuries in the same sort of social position.

Also, slaves aPost too long. Click here to view the full text.


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 No.479519[Reply]

Assume
<established cybernetic socialism
<Athenian/sortition/appointment-by-lot democracy
<economy runs on socialist cybernetic planning with labor vouchers and free labor association (what free market ideologues promised, but not delivered)
<socialist country is militarily secure, the population is heavily armed and people's militias are well organized. The professional military established deterrence with heavy long range weapons.

Lets discuss internal security
I propose we dissolve the traditional separation between foreign and domestic spy-agencies.
<Domestic spy agencies are defense.
<Foreign spy agencies are offense.

Most of the countries around the world have imposed population mass surveillance regimes. That means that all their spies have now been unmasked. Either their spies get caught in their own surveillance drag nets, or they stand out as the part of the few that weren't. The premise is that governments will always be able to penetrate each others organizations. The most efficient way of finding foreign spies is now achieved by breaching the other sides mass surveillance system.

If the socialist country turns off it's mass surveillance system (that it probably inherited from the previous bourgeois dictatorship). The socialist spy agencies become more invisible and much more effective than their counterparts.

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 No.479524

File: 1709675532680.jpg ( 87.84 KB , 1600x800 , Coup53.jpg )

Your premise is way too far in the future to be anything other than fantasy. If we get to the point where your assumptions are true, life would be unrecognizably different and I don't know what kind of attacks we would face.

But I think America's strategies in regime change are under-studied by leftists. How come their tactics haven't been co-opted by the left yet? Off the top of my head, let's look at some broad things that the CIA does to overthrow a government:

> Fund right wing extremist groups or religious extremists

< Do lefty groups lack funding? Is that the problem? Common some of you anons are in IRL orgs, what do they materially need to be successful?

> Color revolutions (you mentioned) and protests

I'm thinking of the hong kong protests, but those didn't overthrow anything. Perhaps we should study how places like Iran had their democratically elected government overthrown by the CIA / british feds in the 50's. There's a documentary about that called Coup 53 that I haven't watched yet (picrel).
< leftists should by now know how to protest but maybe they've forgotten

So what does the CIA do that leftists can't? If it's a lack of resources, which ones? I think we need an objective list.

Also for those that are more well-read than me, what other tactics have been employed? Can they be co-opted?

So yeah let's bring this discussion down to earth a bit and think about what we can use that's already been tried and tested by the ruling class. It's been occurring more and more to me that the point of "seize the means of production" shouldn't be to destroy everything and rebuild, but literally use and appropriate every fucking function that capitalism has invented, shamelessly.
>>

 No.479527

>>479524
A simple and very effective CIA operation to study is the original "orange revolution" in Ukraine in 2004. Victor Yanukovych won a presidential election but the CIA was able to organize enough protests to compel two new elections (the Ukrainian constitution only allows for one) until they got the result they wanted.
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 No.479528

>>479524
>premise is way too far in the future
>life would be unrecognizably different and I don't know what kind of attacks we would face.
the implication of the thought experiment in the opening post is that going hardcore privacy respecting has strategic advantages.

>Do lefty groups lack funding? Is that the problem?

in a way yes
>what do they materially need to be successful?
i'm convinced that socialists cannot copy the methods of political struggle that the bourgeois factions use, because those do commodified politics, which is a kind of simulated fake politics.
Socialists might need a less sophisticated version of labor vouchers as an economic circuit for political struggle.

>I'm thinking of the hong kong protests, but those didn't overthrow anything.

Maybe Chinese counter intelligence hacked into the US surveillance system, and used it to find out who the CIA handlers were, and that's how the Hongkong color revolution was shut down.

>Perhaps we should study how places like Iran had their democratically elected government overthrown by the CIA / british feds in the 50's

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 No.479534

File: 1709721916520.jpg ( 28.36 KB , 1280x720 , maxresdefault-3814984051.jpg )

>>479519
dog, what a fucking retarded tldr

>In the history of socialist countries, the biggest problem has always been attacks from foreign state actors

lol only the in minds of idealistic shizo leninoids

the biggest problem always was economic backwardness and fucking retarded vanguardoid political system

you assume direct democracy with fucking secret police retardoid, when direct democracy REQUIRES transparency

ie you don't understand wtf you are talking about
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 No.479574

>>479534
So you didn't read the opening post. Because it said it wouldn't require internal secret police.


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